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  #26  
Old 11-08-2006, 08:52 PM
C_T C_T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitred
So one could actually build this mixer without royalties or permission.

anyone want to start a business? seriously.
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  #27  
Old 11-08-2006, 08:59 PM
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nitred nitred is offline
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anyone want to start a business? seriously.

Dead serious. When a patent expires or is abandoned it considered part of the "public domain" in ownership. Help yourself mate!

* This why Rane was able to release a 1620 clone without dispute from Harmon.
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Last edited by nitred : 04-07-2011 at 03:28 AM.
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  #28  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:05 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Originally Posted by C_T
anyone want to start a business? seriously.
Its a nice thought, but I seriously doubt you could sell a mixer like this in todays market.

Yeah, everyone says they want the BEST they could get, but when it comes time to pony up the cash?

Another thing to point out, is that the DJ,s spinning in clubs have the mixer they HAVE to have in order to play the club listed in their contracts! Most riders specifically state Rane 2016, or A & H mixers. Regardless of how the Marshak mixer might sound, it just doesnt have the effects, per channel EQ,s, and DJ,s wont use it, no matter how good it sounds.

Now, the best sounding audio preamps, and amps, are usually the ones with the simplest, and purest circuitry. This means, you take something like the Marshak, and add other features, per channel EQ,s, kills switches, its all more complexity, and more electronic components your signal has to pass through. So, if you built a Marshak, with all the features of the Rane 2016, it wouldnt be the same mixer it was when it was a minimal design.

Not to mention, you would be taking an already pricey peice to manufacture, and making it even more expensive.

I dont think you could sell enough to warrant engineering, tooling, and production.

And, yes, if you want to stay in business, manufacturing product, your going to have to give the market the features they want.

This, is the reality of things!

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  #29  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:31 PM
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very true. it's a small market, and i guess most djs nowadays want eqs on each channel, and pretty soon they'll probably even want MIDI capability...
things just move further and further away from superior sound quality and a pair of turntables...

And I suppose we'd be competing with Order of Magnitude's Foundation in that regard.

oh well,
doesn't hurt to dream
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Last edited by C_T : 11-08-2006 at 09:37 PM.
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  #30  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:38 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C_T
very true. it's a small market.

And I suppose we'd be competing with Order of Magnitude's Foundation in that regard.
I had that mixer here for evaluation. It does sound great, it really does, and still, I love my old Ureis and Bozaks too!

However, at the price level of the Foundation, you just wont sell enough of them to warrant manufacture. IMHO.

If this were something that could be marketed to home high end hi fi markets, I might say differently, but, even the home hi fi market in the U.S. has changed! HT is whats up now.

It is what it is.

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  #31  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:42 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Yup, you got it!

Properly set up TT,s with good cartridges, and well recorded vinyl still sounds best to me, and many agree. DJ,s and hi fi nuts alike!

But, the very same DJ,s that will tell you vinyl sounds the best, are also gigging with CD ONLY, and maybe a laptop to play downloads!

Regardless of what sounds like what, they dont, and wont carry record bags anymore. Two or three CD books, and that is the way it is.
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  #32  
Old 11-09-2006, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clubman5
Its a nice thought, but I seriously doubt you could sell a mixer like this in todays market.

Yeah, everyone says they want the BEST they could get, but when it comes time to pony up the cash?



not to be contradictary, beacuase I believe the putting up the cash part to be true....

but I had a few young house heads over a few weeks ago.... early 20s... as they were leaving, they both mentioned how they now have a new "favorite" mixer....

seems that they may be willing to forgo the effects for the basics when well implemented....

although I have heard of a few other locals that really prefer the 1620 to other mixers as well, i am sure that this is not the norm...
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  #33  
Old 11-09-2006, 10:21 AM
JohnDP JohnDP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C_T
pretty soon they'll probably even want MIDI capability...

THAT is what we want now, no serious mixer -analog replicating rotaries aside maybe- will be able to come out without midi in the future, at least not the likes of the next Xone 92, the next Pioneer, the next Ecler and so on.
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  #34  
Old 11-09-2006, 11:28 AM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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Don't forget USB lol
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  #35  
Old 11-09-2006, 02:13 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSA.audio
not to be contradictary, beacuase I believe the putting up the cash part to be true....

but I had a few young house heads over a few weeks ago.... early 20s... as they were leaving, they both mentioned how they now have a new "favorite" mixer....

seems that they may be willing to forgo the effects for the basics when well implemented....

although I have heard of a few other locals that really prefer the 1620 to other mixers as well, i am sure that this is not the norm...
Yes, there are people who will sacrifice effects for sound quality, but in the clubs, they want what they want.

More often than not, the DJ says I want this, and isnt open to anything else!

A mixer like the Marshak, how many do you think would actually be purchased? 10, 20, 50? For these kinds of numbers, its gonna cost more to build, than you can charge!
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  #36  
Old 11-09-2006, 02:22 PM
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for sure.... I hear you....

esoteric audio gear hit the clubs alot earlier than I had thought before....

like you and Ed Sound (and alot of others) have mentioned, you asked the designers and they built it, in the early days at least....

I am sure that none of top designer disco gear was considered "cheap" or "inexpensive" back in the day either...

To pay a craftsman to do something right takes dough.... and most people don't want to pay....

just like in the (insert industry here) business...
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  #37  
Old 11-09-2006, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clubman5
I had that mixer here for evaluation. It does sound great, it really does, and still, I love my old Ureis and Bozaks too!

However, at the price level of the Foundation, you just wont sell enough of them to warrant manufacture. IMHO.

If this were something that could be marketed to home high end hi fi markets, I might say differently, but, even the home hi fi market in the U.S. has changed! HT is whats up now.

It is what it is.



Don't forget the remote control.... a product would need remote control to be sucessful in the home hi-fi market too....


That Foundation is super NICE....

I need to double my salary....
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  #38  
Old 11-09-2006, 02:59 PM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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Make sure that remote operates my curtains okÖright? Throw in a couple of blue LEDís, MP3 compatability, word's like IPOD, cool, gnarley and significant, the word surround sound in the equation and the patented arse scratcher tm and you have yourself a product! What it does I donít know how good does it do it I donít have a clue will it sell shit loads probably. What am I going on about, I donít know!? I have lost it and my marbles have dropped oh dear!
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  #39  
Old 11-09-2006, 05:10 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Just FYI, I have been informed by both Danny Tenaglia and MarioG that this mixer looks more like the Bozak.

It does appear to be 4 rackspace high, and if so, that would make this the very old mono Bozak, of course, it was completely redone and converted to stereo, with phono inputs.

Still, very interesting and rare piece.

This mixer was in a club called Salvation, on South Bch, and the engineer of the club, Leslie Small, who I know very well, always spoke highly of this mixer. He told me it was a Urei, but, I look at it, and I see what Danny and Mario see too!
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  #40  
Old 11-09-2006, 05:20 PM
animal animal is offline
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It was a passion for me back then. Not so much the bussiness but makeing the sound. That was one of my biggest problems. Like now. I'm working on a new crossover for over 6 months I wanted to build for a long time when I was in bussiness. That was 25 years ago. Bucause of this board and the people on this board. You have started that passion in me that I haven't felt in years. this prototype will probably cost me $700 or more to put together. And it may sound like crap untill I test it and tweek it. I'm not thinking about the money, but how this thing will be crazy as long as I can work out the kinks. I met Richard once at club 88 in Orange new jersey. That brief meetting I could see the passion for the sound just talking to him. He was also a good bussiness man or he had someone behind him that was. It's about the passion.

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  #41  
Old 11-09-2006, 06:07 PM
Jesper Jesper is offline
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The actual production costs of such units can be reasonably low. I looked up the cost of Bozak CMA-10-2DL components and came to conclusion that the mixer is made from very few parts and most of them (resistors, capacitors etc) are quite cheap. Even if you buy the quality ones. Only expensive parts are potentiometers (Alps Blue pots are about 30$ each, Allen-Bradleys are cheaper but hard to find, Penny+Giles... well, expensive ) and power supply (~100$). The mixer has 18 pots, so one all-Alps mixer would cost about 1000$ for an average DIY electronics enthusiast. Plus the labor, of course. Some pots (balance, tone controls, monitor level) can probably be of cheaper variety and they all get about 40% cheaper when they are bought in sets of 100 or more. A skilled assembly worker can put the unit together in no-time, so the incremental cost per unit probably drops quite a bit from there. Note that this is a very rough estimate, nothing too precise, but it should be in the ballpark.

What spoils the party are design costs, the ones that you have to make before first production unit leaves the house. You probably have to hire a team of engineers, give them a year or more, build many prototypes, organize testing etc.

So I think it could be financially profitable to produce copies of the old designs, like Urei and Bozak, in series on 100-150 units, because production startup costs are low. But to design a similar mixer from ground up and produce it would be far more complicated, because it needs to be more expensive and/or sell better to break even.

Last edited by Jesper : 11-09-2006 at 06:18 PM.
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  #42  
Old 11-09-2006, 06:23 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Yes and no. The resistors and caps were cheap, the pots can get expensive, and the metal work can get pricey.

You cant just substitute parts, and expect the same sound. The sound of the Bozak, is in fact, the resistors, capacitors, and transistors, as well as the circuits they used. But, change the parts, and see what happens. Pots also are important and have influence on the sound. You change the tone control or volume pot to another brand, youll hear a difference. Good pots cost money, you just arent going to get great pots for $12.00ea!

IF one took enough time during R & D, you copuld come up with a great sounding example of past designs, updated with todays components, but, it will sound different, not saying it wont sound good, but it will be different.

As far as Allen Bradley resistors, I dont think you would dare do a production run using these, as they are no longer made, you cant shop ebay for your parts, and when the supplies run out, and you switch to something else, and people begin saying it doesnt sound the same, you got problems!

Using vintage surplus parts, to hot rod, and custom tune a piece to your liking is strictly the domain of the DIY,er now!

Major manufacturers MUST have consistency in their products! This is a MUST, no IF,s, AND,s, or BUT,s! You cant have variation between production runs, or worse, between units of the same production run.

You could build yourself a special mixer if you wanted to, and find the parts you favor most, and build that!

This is the way it really is!
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  #43  
Old 11-09-2006, 06:49 PM
Jesper Jesper is offline
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Yes, but don't you have the same problems with all-new design? I'm not claiming that the replica Bozak with modern parts will sound good or anything near the original one without proper fine-tuning, but neither will the all-new design. I wanted to point out that the price of the components is not that high that it would make this idea sink right away and I have the impression that the effort of designing and producing a profitable quality mixer could be made considerably more manageable by reusing an old design.

But I am not an expert by any means, just a bystander
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  #44  
Old 11-09-2006, 07:06 PM
C_T C_T is offline
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yea, using an existing chassis with completely redesigned parts sounds like the most cost effective option.
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  #45  
Old 11-09-2006, 07:21 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesper
Yes, but don't you have the same problems with all-new design? I'm not claiming that the replica Bozak with modern parts will sound good or anything near the original one without proper fine-tuning, but neither will the all-new design. I wanted to point out that the price of the components is not that high that it would make this idea sink right away and I have the impression that the effort of designing and producing a profitable quality mixer could be made considerably more manageable by reusing an old design.

But I am not an expert by any means, just a bystander
Its all good, and this is conversation, BTW, Welcome to Wave!

It depends on what you want to do! If you decided to build using high quality film capacitors, and higher than radio shack ( You have questions? So do we! ) quality resistors, it can get expensive for parts. Things like Deuland capacitors, Jensen paper in oils, etc, they get pricey. transformers, good ones, can be quite expensive.

Id say that you could build a mixer that surpasses anything ever done, IF, you know how to blend the parts to create the sound your after.

Anyone can go and buy Mundorf Supreme caps, Vishay resistors, and whatever is boutique flavors of the month. Its a skilled designer/engineer that puts brand B type Y resistor, together with brand c, type w capacitor in a particular circuit to get a certain sound!

And this is why many who try DIY mods, using high priced boutique components sometimes wind up with a worse sound than the stock sound they were trying to improve!

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Last edited by clubman5 : 11-09-2006 at 07:40 PM.
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