Wave Music Home
ReleasesCommunityYour OrderWave Music
ArtistsEventsDJ MixesShop

Wave Music Home


Home
About Us
Labels
Distributed Labels
Links




Search


Adv. Search



Subscribe


Email






Go Back   Wave Music Community Board > Tech Talk for Gearheads

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
  #26  
Old 12-06-2012, 03:14 PM
bossa nolyx bossa nolyx is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 211
Did not analyse the circuit of the iso-x yet but with standard studio line level you can not even push the 6dB without heavy distortion. And also with no gain the sound is really not good. Could send some sound files later if anybody is interested in.


Quote:
but I believe it's easier to design a discrete circuit that doesn't mess with a signal's phase than an IC circuit.
Interesting that you say "easy". I build my own mixer using standard NE5532 or OPA604/OPA634 ICs. For me it's easier to build up a simple IC designed circuit. And if you take care of a good supply (various capacitors near by every IC voltage input), short links at important places in the circuit and good elements (maybe avoid electrolytic capacitors?) you get a sound and measurement results that beat every mixer.

In my experience!
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-07-2012, 02:23 AM
Pern Pern is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Landskrona, Sweden
Posts: 350
I don't think it's easier to design discrete stuff compared to IC-based ones. Anyone can design for example a IC-based gain stage with a gain of 10,
try to do that using 2 or 3 transistors/FETs and try to get even close to the IC version when it comes to distortion. That require a lot of knowledge.

The "Warm Sound" in discrete/Tube stuff is mostly added distortion (harmonics) and this distortion is removed in IC-designs due to how OPs works internally.
All discrete/tube designs add distortion, then depending on the design you can control how much and what type it is.
Also many high quality discrete designs works in Class-A and have high quality/high voltage PSU's, something that ICs don't.

It's much easier to create something using IC's, and as bossa_nolyx write, by using good quality components, a good core design, PSU/filtering and PCB design
you can get fantastic results using ICs,even better than most modern commercial club-mixers.
__________________
My Rotary Mixer Projects:

www.Bozure.com

On Facebook

Last edited by Pern : 12-07-2012 at 08:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-07-2012, 03:17 AM
misterharrison misterharrison is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 185
I'm bowing out here - I certainly don't have the knowledge to get involved in this kind of discussion and shouldn't have said anything in the first place.
Sorry.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-08-2012, 01:09 PM
man_traic man_traic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 254
Way to derail my thread guys
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-08-2012, 03:09 PM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: South East Kent, UK
Posts: 1,829
I'd be seriously tempted by that Japanese mixer or a custom job but then I think the Rane is the sensible option.

The Rane seems to have the features you want, you can buy it new from a decent company with good after sales service, no hidden bullshit or waiting list and it doesn't sound bad.

As to the RK-40 and RK-27 whilst the 40 seems to be of a higher quality I actually prefer the slightly looser feel of the 27, all down to taste and what you are used to really.
__________________
--The future scares me, any chance of a lift back to the past any one?--

Last edited by vinyl_junkie : 12-08-2012 at 03:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 12-08-2012, 03:18 PM
man_traic man_traic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 254
This is what im thinking... thx m
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-09-2012, 10:14 AM
Mistick Krewe Mistick Krewe is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: hoodoo audio heaven
Posts: 1,404
Quote:

As to the RK-40 and RK-27 whilst the 40 seems to be of a higher quality I actually prefer the slightly looser feel of the 27, all down to taste and what you are used to really.
isn't the tightness of the feel of the pot a specification option? I know I've felt different modpots, both brand new, but with very diff. levels of torque required for movement...
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-09-2012, 11:47 AM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: South East Kent, UK
Posts: 1,829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistick Krewe
isn't the tightness of the feel of the pot a specification option? I know I've felt different modpots, both brand new, but with very diff. levels of torque required for movement...

Not sure, but I have heard that the pots on the Rane are a lot looser to the ones on the LE even though it's the same pot :-/ So there must be some truth in what you are saying.
Saying that when I brought my LE new some of the pots were looser than others i.e. Phono 1 was looser than the rest whilst Aux 4 was the tightest, the rest all felt roughly the same.
__________________
--The future scares me, any chance of a lift back to the past any one?--
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-09-2012, 12:59 PM
bossa nolyx bossa nolyx is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 211
Pern +1!

The RK27 loose their tight feeling over time. A few month intensiv mixing and you can't compare it to a new one.

On my Iso-X every knob feels different.

They are fantastic if they are new, but later they feel much worse. unfortunately.



I also recognized on standard potentiometers that the mechanical resistance increases by tighten the nut much stronger. But I think this normally destroys the pot... Didn't want to try this with a 12€-pot...
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-11-2012, 12:35 PM
rs_ rs_ is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 224
I love the Bozak ISO-X. It is quite underrated IMO, but more as a studio piece. It does color the sound though even at neutral settings -- then again so does a Pultec, and a UREI LA-2A, and most any other classic piece of gear.

Discrete to me sounds different though there are many, many variables to a circuit of course... To me there's something about the sound that "goes farther" but at the same time is "easier" sounding, even under distortion.

Most of my favorite gear (LA-2A, old tube amps, tape machines, Passive EQs) is full of distortion though, when you get down to it, be it inductor/transformer distortion or tube distortion or weird phenomena with impedances. Even the UREI 1620 owes a lot of its personality to its (distortion-introducing) output transformers. I actually put an old pair of them on my Soul Sonic discrete mixer and love the "muscle" of it.

I'm sure a Pioneer DJM mixer has vastly superior THD and Noise characteristics to all the stuff I like.

rs
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-11-2012, 04:13 PM
Mistick Krewe Mistick Krewe is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: hoodoo audio heaven
Posts: 1,404
Quote:

Even the UREI 1620 owes a lot of its personality to its (distortion-introducing) output transformers. I actually put an old pair of them on my Soul Sonic discrete mixer and love the "muscle" of it.

I'm sure a Pioneer DJM mixer has vastly superior THD and Noise characteristics to all the stuff I

rs
and I actually prefer the unbalanced outputs of the classic 1620,
to me it sounds less constricted, a bit more extension I suppose...

every body has their favorite flavor...
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-11-2012, 09:12 PM
rs_ rs_ is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 224
Yeah, without a doubt Mistick Krewe. Luckily, with most of the mixers discussed here, it's like comparing Mercedes and Rolls-Royce: any one you pick is pretty great.

rs
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-12-2012, 02:40 PM
darrylfunk darrylfunk is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: essex , england
Posts: 234
i have a badly finished DJ mixer of partly my own design and after much chopping and changing i opted for transformer line ins but a buffered out.

That way the character of the transformer remains more of a constant than being driven by a circuit in front of it for the output.

i'd like to refine the design or possibly get someone to finish my own design professionally.... But I am waiting for Justin's mixer too.

i quite like a lot of mixers, some of the denon's are o.k. The Ranes, formula sound and some of the a&h mixers are o.k. i don't like pioneers and i love the e&s portable.... I use a digital Urei and find it great but not perfect.

I'm in the camp that believes nothing is perfect unless you can get or afford your perfect custom job.

I think the wise man tries as much as he can and goes for it.

After all it doesn't matter to anyone else if you are happy.

Good hunting!
__________________
it aint were your from its were your at.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 03-03-2013, 01:04 PM
Disko Ole Disko Ole is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: ~Oslo, Norway
Posts: 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by man_traic
Alpha Recording System ARS 4100
Pros: Compact, nice dual FX loop, high quality, uncluttered
Cons: Expensive, no warranty (!), Rec outs arent post-FX, Cueing system is too basic

Who told you the tapeouts are pre-effects?

From what I've heard they are in fact post-effects... :-)
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 03-04-2013, 03:55 AM
Reticuli Reticuli is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 905
I'm pretty frigg'n floored with a Mackie D4. Better than Xone sound. Not quite as good as Biamp's bass but better highs, no grain, and flat (no 1dB trend in favor of highs). Great filters. Useful EQs. Phenomenal mic preamps and Onyx firewire 24/96 in/out section... way better than any interface I've ever had, including two Emus. And it can sort of kind of work as a rotary if you use the send/returns like it was opposite day. My only complaints: I still think DJ digital mixers do better summing than analog DJ mixers, gets hot and needs to be on a laptop cooler (easy fix, does it mean it's running class A inside or something?), the meters are only one color and need to be run in a strange way to prevent the filters overloading, and the line faders' default curve is idiotic and needs tweaking internally with some pot adjustments, which I haven't done yet. If I could wire the send/return knobs in reverse and put bigger knobs on them, I'd be very content with dual fader and rotary function. Anyway. None of you probably wanted to hear that, but thought I'd contribute.

On the S/N ratio front and some of the other stuff, I think Elliot Marx once mentioned to me that getting good transient response sometimes meant sacrificing a little noise floor to get it. So maybe you should just think about getting your Urei serviced. Check with local music gear stores and hospitals for freelance electronics repair people. The people who work for some of these hospitals are a cut above. The mods you have on your Urei are golden ones, especially the cue feature.
__________________
The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011...pen-wager.html

Last edited by Reticuli : 03-04-2013 at 05:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 03-04-2013, 10:36 AM
charles0322 charles0322 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 696
Send a message via AIM to charles0322
thread derailment or not, fascinating stuff

we're lucky on this board to have so many mixer designers, sound pros & even djs all dedicated to playback with quality gear.

as far as gear goes, mixer choice seems to always be the driving force behind our passion as djs, it's our tool for the mix and becomes an extension of our mind.

I think I would prob. buy an A&H Xone92.. this is based on layout, tools and usability, price, dj riders, ease of use for all platforms, multiple sends and returns.. all for about 1,000

if you want boutique and such and money is no object the choice gets harder! because ideally you would want to listen to every mixer and test before buying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pern
I don't think it's easier to design discrete stuff compared to IC-based ones. Anyone can design for example a IC-based gain stage with a gain of 10,
try to do that using 2 or 3 transistors/FETs and try to get even close to the IC version when it comes to distortion. That require a lot of knowledge.

The "Warm Sound" in discrete/Tube stuff is mostly added distortion (harmonics) and this distortion is removed in IC-designs due to how OPs works internally.
All discrete/tube designs add distortion, then depending on the design you can control how much and what type it is.
Also many high quality discrete designs works in Class-A and have high quality/high voltage PSU's, something that ICs don't.

It's much easier to create something using IC's, and as bossa_nolyx write, by using good quality components, a good core design, PSU/filtering and PCB design
you can get fantastic results using ICs,even better than most modern commercial club-mixers.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 03-20-2013, 07:48 PM
Reticuli Reticuli is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 905
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mackie-D-4-P...em51a a1fbd17
__________________
The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011...pen-wager.html
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 03-21-2013, 11:46 AM
charles0322 charles0322 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 696
Send a message via AIM to charles0322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reticuli

Good mixer in so far as specs and usefulness in the studio too, its been around for a while but I havent seen anyone using one yet. I will try it out soon to hear the difference between it and the xone92
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 03-21-2013, 09:31 PM
Reticuli Reticuli is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 905
I haven't seen any new ones available for quite a while. It's worth the soundcard in it alone. Better fidelity than any of my interfaces before, and that includes Emu's "miracle DAC" chip ones. Many times the ins/outs, too.

Make sure you run the meters as mentioned in the manual. It's to prevent the filters from overloading. It can't be run like a Xone can. Neither could the Biamps, which were even more abrupt overloaders (almost like brick wall 0dBFS in digital domain on those).

I also recommend running it on top of a laptop cooler. There's a buttload of heat-generating stuff inside.

Besides that, the other thing I'd like to do is get in there and change the pots that supposedly control the fader curves, but there are a lot of screws to take off on the front to do it and you need a volt meter to adjust them. A rotary version with a built-in 120mm fan on the bottom would sell like hotcakes. Well, there's always the send-receive knobs if you don't mind them working backwards.

While the bass isn't quite as tight as the SCM7500/7600, it's pretty close and the sound isn't euphonic or sweetened to my ears like the Xones, but without the Biamp's hardness and coldness. It's a very happy medium. Likes to be loud and it likes speakers that can dish out extended highs. There is a lot of musical information this interface & mixer can flesh out with the right system.

My only sonic complaint about it is the slight lack of ultimate in-the-blend transparency that some minimalist two-channel designs and (I know it's sacrilege but...) some of the best digital mixers can manage. That's a hard thing to judge, though, and the filters, features, and overall analog goodness make up for it.

Oh, and watch out for that headphone jack. It's ridiculously powerful. You might want to wrap the knob so you don't grab it accidentally in the dark.
__________________
The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011...pen-wager.html

Last edited by Reticuli : 03-21-2013 at 09:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.0.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2006 Wave Music


© Wave Entertainment Group, Inc.