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  #26  
Old 10-20-2007, 05:30 PM
edwardcampbell edwardcampbell is offline
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As usual this discussion went in the wrong direction. No one mentioned names just opinions and everyone took it in the wrong direction.

Figures !!!!!!
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  #27  
Old 10-20-2007, 06:09 PM
benjaminb benjaminb is offline
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OK, we can forget about the names.

regardless, isolator abuse isn't something that the 'kids' are very guilty of, if anything it's the realm DJs in their 30s and 40s, who in theory should know better.

as far as current songs sucking compared to the 70s, that's really a matter of taste, and we won't know what will be considered a classic in 20 years.
however, we can say that there are songs that have been released since 2000 that do appear to have staying power.

i still hear We Are Your Friends (Justice vs Simian) at least once every weekend (usually more), and it's four years old. of course that's the obvious example of a contemporary anthem (and future classic), but it's hardly alone.

my point is that if you think isolator-wanking is a current trend, then you're probably not actually listening to the DJs who are actually leading the way right now.
if you think there aren't anthems and future-classics being produced, you're probably listening to the wrong people.
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  #28  
Old 10-20-2007, 06:14 PM
benjaminb benjaminb is offline
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and on a vaguely related note:

Artist: LCD Soundsystem
Album: LCD Soundsystem
Year: 2005
Title: Losing My Edge

Yeah, I'm losing my edge.
I'm losing my edge.
The kids are coming up from behind.
I'm losing my edge.
I'm losing my edge to the kids from France and from London.
But I was there.

I was there in 1968.
I was there at the first Can show in Cologne.
I'm losing my edge.
I'm losing my edge to the kids whose footsteps I hear when they get on the decks.
I'm losing my edge to the Internet seekers who can tell me every member of every good group from 1962 to 1978.
I'm losing my edge.

To all the kids in Tokyo and Berlin.
I'm losing my edge to the art-school Brooklynites in little jackets and borrowed nostalgia for the unremembered eighties.

But I'm losing my edge.
I'm losing my edge, but I was there.
I was there.
But I was there.

I'm losing my edge.
I'm losing my edge.
I can hear the footsteps every night on the decks.

But I was there.
I was there in 1974 at the first Suicide practices in a loft in New York City.
I was working on the organ sounds with much patience.
I was there when Captain Beefheart started up his first band.
I told him, "Don't do it that way. You'll never make a dime."
I was there.
I was the first guy playing Daft Punk to the rock kids.
I played it at CBGB's.
Everybody thought I was crazy.
We all know.
I was there.
I was there.
I've never been wrong.

I used to work in the record store.
I had everything before anyone.
I was there in the Paradise Garage DJ booth with Larry Levan.
I was there in Jamaica during the great sound clashes.
I woke up naked on the beach in Ibiza in 1988.

But I'm losing my edge to better-looking people with better ideas and more talent.
And they're actually really, really nice.

I'm losing my edge.

I heard you have a compilation of every good song ever done by anybody. Every great song by the Beach Boys. All the underground hits. All the Modern Lovers tracks. I heard you have a vinyl of every Niagra record on German import. I heard that you have a white label of every seminal Detroit techno hit - 1985, '86, '87. I heard that you have a CD compilation of every good '60s cut and another box set from the '70s.

I hear you're buying a synthesizer and an arpeggiator and are throwing your computer out the window because you want to make something real. You want to make a Yaz record.

I hear that you and your band have sold your guitars and bought turntables.
I hear that you and your band have sold your turntables and bought guitars.

I hear everybody that you know is more relevant than everybody that I know.

But have you seen my records? This Heat, Pere Ubu, Outsiders, Nation of Ulysses, Mars, The Trojans, The Black Dice, Todd Terry, the Germs, Section 25, Althea and Donna, Sexual Harrassment, a-ha, Pere Ubu, Dorothy Ashby, PIL, the Fania All-Stars, the Bar-Kays, the Human League, the Normal, Lou Reed, Scott Walker, Monks, Niagra,

Joy Division, Lower 48, the Association, Sun Ra,
Scientists, Royal Trux, 10cc,

Eric B. and Rakim, Index, Basic Channel, Soulsonic Force ("just hit me"!), Juan Atkins, David Axelrod, Electric Prunes, Gil! Scott! Heron!, the Slits, Faust, Mantronix, Pharaoh Sanders and the Fire Engines, the Swans, the Soft Cell, the Sonics, the Sonics, the Sonics, the Sonics.

You don't know what you really want. (x15)
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  #29  
Old 10-20-2007, 06:44 PM
edwardcampbell edwardcampbell is offline
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Still missing the point in my discussion.
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  #30  
Old 10-20-2007, 07:04 PM
benjaminb benjaminb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardcampbell
Still missing the point in my discussion.

empty your PMs - your box is full.

also, i'm not attacking you, i just disagree that isolator abuse is much of an issue with the new generation of DJs.
(that was what you were saying, wasn't it?)
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  #31  
Old 10-20-2007, 08:07 PM
Fred Bissnette Fred Bissnette is offline
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i dunno

i dont use any eq of any sort or isolator at home only my volume pots thats it

but when i go to a gig and they have a pioneer 500/600/800 i can show any new school kid how to tear a new one out of the eq and efffects its fun to play with and can generate a lot of fun

ive also watched vega and the lot tear the roof off an isolator and ive seen morales lift the roof off of stereo with only a simple blend and the fluctuation of volume on the urei

you dont need to touch anything when you mix two songs but its fun

your playing the music your playing the venue your playing the sound system and your playing the crowd

and you playing your mind

its all perspective

peas
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  #32  
Old 10-20-2007, 11:57 PM
edwardcampbell edwardcampbell is offline
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Actually I regret bringing this topic up, it seems to have bothered alot of people on this sight. However, those who have PM me feel free to do as you have been.

Remember when you first heard a great song, did you require alternating sound.

Take Care
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  #33  
Old 10-21-2007, 06:05 AM
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RETRODISKO RETRODISKO is offline
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Its not what you got its how you used.,.

beatport its not crappy, they have cool music, Strictly Rhythm back catalogue for example, or Wave music, (that is not crap, )..

Ableton, its a cool tool for me i love it, i change Cubase for it.. Another example, i love my Thorens TT, im with new things and old things. so its not crap, All is good, all things, all gear.have his cool side and his bad side, another example, I love 3600 Crowns but they are tooooo heavy I prefer Itech 8000 In my club because i play top 40 things, Nobody will listen the diffrence on a Fergie song, Its more practical for me, the owners and my space on the Dj booth. . If i have a place with only turntables and analogue systems Ill do 3600 or 1200 . of course,

Yeah I don't like Joe Clausell all day tweeking isolators, but i never have been interested in listen to him live because i don't feel i like that isolator thing, so there are people that love it . Things sometimes are very overexposed and turns to be bored for people like us,. Like Hip Hop, remember 30 years ago???, there was no hip hop. and now you see it
everywhere, We are getting old maybe, and complain about all new things, the way Dj's see things, I do all time, am complaining about all. but its very very cool all this new tecnology the digital, the computers. and ways of mixing. or djing. maybe the kids need to look back and learn more. and we have the responsability to educate them , not just said that there are bad or they dont know,
.
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  #34  
Old 10-21-2007, 09:29 AM
T. Tauri T. Tauri is offline
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My feeling is it's a tool that can be well or badly used, whether its being used not at all, a little or a lot. S'like: a movie can be good whether it's done with lots of long takes, very conservative editing and camera work (say: M. Night Shyamalan or Takeshi Kitano) or with short takes, edits all over the place, crazy camera swoops (say: James Cameron); or it can suck because of that.

It's all in whether the use enhances the DJs ability to express themselves or whatever they want to be expressing vs doing it because that's what someone else did.

Peece,
T. Tauri
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  #35  
Old 10-21-2007, 12:46 PM
Fred Bissnette Fred Bissnette is offline
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hey man im not bothered at all by this

its all a matter of opinion

love peas and grease man
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  #36  
Old 10-21-2007, 02:03 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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You know what? IT hasnt been about the music for a really long time now! YUP, I said it! IT hasnt been about the music for a long time now. Maybe since 1995, everyone began using DAW,s, no one made vocals anymore, professional mixing in proper studios, and mastering went out the window to left field.

IT became about WHO is playing rather then WHAT they play. Now, with all our new digital source material and lack of good songs, what else do you have except trickery, and effects?

Electronics are cool, and they can be used to enhance a track or song. My big problem is when you hear the same kills, dropouts, and manipulations each and every track played!

Someone stated they saw a DJ blow the roof off a club, with only a simple blend, and volume fluctuation. That is how it used to be, and can still be done. I am not saying we should lose all the electronic toys, but, yes, they have become overused.

I also am of the opinion that todays music is NOWHERE near as well produced and well recorded as our great classics of the 70,s and 80,s, and early 90,s. Sorry, but for me, THIS is a very important part of the experience too! Granted, there are a few tracks with some staying power, if you can get past todays cheap recording technology, used to produce " Disposable Music ".

Very little of todays dance music have real instruments! I miss real instruments, becuase they sound like REAL music. Todays young people missed out on the very best we ever had!
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  #37  
Old 10-21-2007, 02:29 PM
Fred Bissnette Fred Bissnette is offline
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yeah thats the type of mix i aspire to when i play is the blends and acentuation of tones through volume if i had my way i would bring my mixer to every gig

and music is music i like real vocals i like songs that tell stories but i also like techno and deep tech house stuff

anything with the vibe i need to feel it

peas
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  #38  
Old 10-21-2007, 02:34 PM
moonmoon moonmoon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clubman5
You know what? IT hasnt been about the music for a really long time now! YUP, I said it! IT hasnt been about the music for a long time now. Maybe since 1995, everyone began using DAW,s, no one made vocals anymore, professional mixing in proper studios, and mastering went out the window to left field.

IT became about WHO is playing rather then WHAT they play. Now, with all our new digital source material and lack of good songs, what else do you have except trickery, and effects?

Electronics are cool, and they can be used to enhance a track or song. My big problem is when you hear the same kills, dropouts, and manipulations each and every track played!

Someone stated they saw a DJ blow the roof off a club, with only a simple blend, and volume fluctuation. That is how it used to be, and can still be done. I am not saying we should lose all the electronic toys, but, yes, they have become overused.

I also am of the opinion that todays music is NOWHERE near as well produced and well recorded as our great classics of the 70,s and 80,s, and early 90,s. Sorry, but for me, THIS is a very important part of the experience too! Granted, there are a few tracks with some staying power, if you can get past todays cheap recording technology, used to produce " Disposable Music ".

Very little of todays dance music have real instruments! I miss real instruments, becuase they sound like REAL music. Todays young people missed out on the very best we ever had!

I think this has a lot to do with the state of the recording industry in general, difficult to make a dollar these days...

But we have (IMHO) so many better live acts , because the producers are taking it to the streets to make a buck or 2.... Some really great shit going on, if you know where to look..

A resurgence of sorts


playing other people's music seems it's just not cutting it anymore.
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  #39  
Old 10-21-2007, 02:46 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonmoon
I think this has a lot to do with the state of the recording industry in general, difficult to make a dollar these days...

And it was the industry itself that did this to themselves. They wanted Digital, they wanted to not have to spend money on recording, engineers, mixdown, session players, studio time at the good studios, marketing, promoting, product and packaging, etc!

Well, the industry got what they wanted!
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  #40  
Old 10-21-2007, 02:58 PM
moonmoon moonmoon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clubman5
And it was the industry itself that did this to themselves. They wanted Digital, they wanted to not have to spend money on recording, engineers, mixdown, session players, studio time at the good studios, marketing, promoting, product and packaging, etc!

Well, the industry got what they wanted!

Well that's true in a sense, but who knew someone was going to develop a p2p program and single handily destroy this industry overnight..

Digital has its plus and minus like everything in life, same as analog, difficult to work with no presets, no recall, impossible to transport... Digital, cold, crunchy, flat, crashes..
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  #41  
Old 10-21-2007, 03:19 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonmoon
Well that's true in a sense, but who knew someone was going to develop a p2p program and single handily destroy this industry overnight..

Digital has its plus and minus like everything in life, same as analog, difficult to work with no presets, no recall, impossible to transport... Digital, cold, crunchy, flat, crashes..
Because they were already against recordable CD,s for exactly the reason theat IF we could make perfect copies, they knew it would KILL their sales. This was going on long before P2P.

We already kinew digital didnt sound as good, as human, as warm. BUT, it was a heck of alot more cost effective to do. THEY ( industry ) figured we wouldnt notice the difference, or care?

Hey, its hard to cook from scratch too! One has to be a good cook or good chef, to create amazing dishes from fresh ingredients. I guarantee if you make Instant Mashed Potatoes, and I make real mashed potatoes you will notice the difference right away. Sure, its more work to peel potatoes, boil em, drain em, then mash them, but, its worth it. Digital Music is alot like the powdered instant stuff, its synthetic. Granted, its got a place, but, now, its all we have!
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  #42  
Old 10-21-2007, 03:27 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonmoon
difficult to work with
This one particular thing is the one that saddens me the most!

We dont want to work anymore, nor do we even know how to work anymore.

Difficult to work with no presets, difficult to transport, difficult to figure out without a simulation program, difficult to work without prepackaged assemble by numbered parts, difficult to transport anything heavy!


Difficult for me to say to you that this is OK! The beginning of last century through the 1940,s were some of the most inventive times in history. And they had nothing but " Difficult " to work with, and they had no computers, no CNC sawmills, how did they do it?

They figured things out, then they WORKED!
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  #43  
Old 10-21-2007, 03:50 PM
Fred Bissnette Fred Bissnette is offline
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anyone read alvin tofflers third wave?

this explains everything in great detail about how we used to do things and how we do things now

great read

peas
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  #44  
Old 10-21-2007, 04:10 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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That will make great reading! And pertains to what Im saying 100%.

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  #45  
Old 10-21-2007, 04:21 PM
moonmoon moonmoon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clubman5
Because they were already against recordable CD,s for exactly the reason theat IF we could make perfect copies, they knew it would KILL their sales. This was going on long before P2P.

We already kinew digital didnt sound as good, as human, as warm. BUT, it was a heck of alot more cost effective to do. THEY ( industry ) figured we wouldnt notice the difference, or care?

Hey, its hard to cook from scratch too! One has to be a good cook or good chef, to create amazing dishes from fresh ingredients. I guarantee if you make Instant Mashed Potatoes, and I make real mashed potatoes you will notice the difference right away. Sure, its more work to peel potatoes, boil em, drain em, then mash them, but, its worth it. Digital Music is alot like the powdered instant stuff, its synthetic. Granted, its got a place, but, now, its all we have!


Again you have valid points that i live by and truly believe, But its unfortunate we live in this world... Its either you adapt or die...

Ill take your mashed potato analogy and one up , these days making great mashed potato's isn't going to be enough, molecular gastronomy is taking over... And isn't going anywhere unfortunately, so you can either sit back and take the blows or beat them at there own game, because if you truly understand the principles of how food is made and should taste, learn these new techniques and apply them to your own, you essentially will not be pigeon holed because of the methods you use to create but how your food ultimately taste's, Its empowering really to educate yourself and continually progress and evolve, because at one point disco and garage was the for front the cutting edge....
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  #46  
Old 10-21-2007, 05:17 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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I agree, one does have to continually seek new ideas, and ways.

These days in food, we seemed to have made a return to acquiring the freshest ingredients available. This is whats premium in todays top restaurants, chefs have food growers raise and feed the cattle and chickens to their specs, chefs want vegtables fresh piceked that week, even day, and shipped overnight. And you pay for this! However, when one eats at some premium restaurants, you can taste the difference, it isnt a slight difference, either. I will shop in Manhattan, at specialty premium food stores for vine ripened fruit. Its expensive but, the fruit is incredible. Strawberries that taste naturally sweet and not like red cardboard, or melons that taste like melons. Supermarket hothouse ripened stuff tastes like crap in comparision! Same for meats and other foods. And, I look at it like this, cooking is a creative art, just like playing music. You start with the best ingredients you can get and/or afford, and if your good at what you do, you can get stellar results. However, if you start with SHIT, its hard to come out with prime rib!

In audio, small companies, making small production runs of high quality, hand assembled products, using components made for them, to their specification, because these types of parts are no longer readily available off the shelf, utilizing tried and true circuits updated for today!

You do know that as far forward as we have come, is as far into the past as we have dug to build great audio components! I mean how far back does the vacuum tube date? And why now, in the modern digital age, with all the hyper technology we have available, is the vacumm tube back, and stronger than ever before?

Horn loaded technology! Another type of speaker technology that dates all the way back to audios very beginning, improved upon over the decades, then cast aside for new compact, lightweight designs, that could handle tons of power, and yet? The horn speaker technology has enjoyed quite the renaissance!

I do agree with you that we must learn to adapt, or fade away!

I dont always like the quality of dowloads. But, I am striving to find ways to make them sound good.

Downloads, and CD,s are whats available, and we just dont have fully stocked record stores as we once did!

I DO find the vacuum tube to make alot of digital recordings sound considerably better.
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  #47  
Old 10-21-2007, 06:28 PM
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DSA.audio DSA.audio is offline
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smashed, as opposed to mashed, potato please...

I like some texture intact...

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  #48  
Old 10-22-2007, 07:26 PM
benjaminb benjaminb is offline
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in the studio, digital has democratised music, which is good and bad.
you don't need money to make a decent recording anymore, but you do need to know what you're doing. i know people who have traditional analogue studios and know how to use them, but who use their digital setups just as much (if not more) and get equally good results. some of you might not believe that, but when i listen to what the tracks they're working on it's really not easy to tell which were done on the reel to reels, and which were done on cubase. of course if you don't know what you're doing, neither will sound good.


in the marketplace, digital has also democratised music, which is also good and bad. you don't need label support to get it out there, which is good, as most labels were too conservative and unadventurous. it's also bad, because since there's no risk, there's also no quality control. it's also bad because it's become next to impossible to make a living selling recorded music anymore. on the other hand, it's forcing acts to make their living touring, which means that for the first time in a long time, musicians have to be able to do it live and can't rely on studio trickery.

in the live setting, digital has finally made it possible to do live electronic shows that are much more than just pressing play. sure, people did it before with a handful of drum machines, synths, and effects, but very few people pulled it off well.

in the DJ setting, laptops have changed the game fundamentally. it's no longer just about who you know (in terms of getting the new tracks, or obscure older ones), but more about what you know. if you know what you're looking for, you can find it. on the other hand, if you don't know what to look for, you can be overwhelmed by the amount of crap out there. it's also made it harder for DJs to play one genre all night, as audiences expect you to bring and know tons of different kinds of music. i feel like that's a good thing - by the end of the 90s mono-genre DJing was getting really boring.

wow i'm long winded sometimes.

as a final thought, i think some of you might be hearing your old 80s records with rose-tinted ears. a lot of those chicago 12"s were mastered badly, mixed weirdly, and pressed badly. i'd rather play the remastered versions on the reissue CD than the original vinyl.
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  #49  
Old 10-22-2007, 07:31 PM
benjaminb benjaminb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardcampbell
Actually I regret bringing this topic up, it seems to have bothered alot of people on this sight. However, those who have PM me feel free to do as you have been.

Remember when you first heard a great song, did you require alternating sound.

Take Care

don't regret it - this is an interesting discussion.
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  #50  
Old 10-23-2007, 09:37 AM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benjaminb
in the studio, digital has democratised music, which is good and bad.
you don't need money to make a decent recording anymore, but you do need to know what you're doing. i know people who have traditional analogue studios and know how to use them, but who use their digital setups just as much (if not more) and get equally good results. some of you might not believe that, but when i listen to what the tracks they're working on it's really not easy to tell which were done on the reel to reels, and which were done on cubase. of course if you don't know what you're doing, neither will sound good.


in the marketplace, digital has also democratised music, which is also good and bad. you don't need label support to get it out there, which is good, as most labels were too conservative and unadventurous. it's also bad, because since there's no risk, there's also no quality control. it's also bad because it's become next to impossible to make a living selling recorded music anymore. on the other hand, it's forcing acts to make their living touring, which means that for the first time in a long time, musicians have to be able to do it live and can't rely on studio trickery.

in the live setting, digital has finally made it possible to do live electronic shows that are much more than just pressing play. sure, people did it before with a handful of drum machines, synths, and effects, but very few people pulled it off well.

in the DJ setting, laptops have changed the game fundamentally. it's no longer just about who you know (in terms of getting the new tracks, or obscure older ones), but more about what you know. if you know what you're looking for, you can find it. on the other hand, if you don't know what to look for, you can be overwhelmed by the amount of crap out there. it's also made it harder for DJs to play one genre all night, as audiences expect you to bring and know tons of different kinds of music. i feel like that's a good thing - by the end of the 90s mono-genre DJing was getting really boring.

wow i'm long winded sometimes.

as a final thought, i think some of you might be hearing your old 80s records with rose-tinted ears. a lot of those chicago 12"s were mastered badly, mixed weirdly, and pressed badly. i'd rather play the remastered versions on the reissue CD than the original vinyl.
Agree, you make some valid points. But, as much as digital amd the computer opened up making music to anyone, so now does anyone make music today. Unfortunately, NOT everyone is a musician. So, not everything made actaully sounds like music. As you say, its both good and bad.

The 12in Chicago tracks were not always mastered and pressed very well. One lable comes to mind, TRAX! I hated their stuff because it was such low quality pressings.

The best DJ,s, IMO, were never stuck in a mono genre type of music. You went to hear certain DJ,s known for a particular style of music, and they would always surprise you by playing something totally out of the genre they were known for!

Beatport, IMO, isnt exactly crap, they have a wide selection, ranging from A to Z, but, even with the back catalog offereings and up to date dance of all genres, its the lack of recording quality, and standardization of recording quality that pisses me off. Many a time, you find a great track, but its piss poorly recorded. Then, you have a track that is so so, but recorded well.

You know, anyone can make the music, you dont have to have tons of money, and once again, its both good and bad!
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