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  #1  
Old 01-15-2013, 10:56 AM
herbalpudding herbalpudding is offline
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Opinions on Crown M-600 mono block amps

Hi guys,

I have a question that would have been right up Scotty's alley, but I know you all are up to the task.

There's a local guy in my area looking to sell two Crown M-600 mono block amplifiers for $500 total. One is in perfect working condition. The other had blown a fuse and he doesn't know exactly how simple or complex the repair is.

If you don't know these amps, the short story is that they are absolutely massive. 92lbs. a piece! And for all of that size, you get a lot of power. 1000 watts into 4 ohms mono. They often were sold under the Amcron/Techron commercial lines of Crown for medical/industrial use. Supposedly amazing for sub use (I've seen Elliot post elsewhere about them).

Complicating matters a bit, I would add that I already own two Crown PSA-2's that are being refurbished to their original state as we speak. Scotty once mentioned here and here that the PSA-2 came out later and negated the need for the M-600, as it was smaller (though still huge by today's standards) with comparable performance. I'd be curious to hear opinions on this today.

I know that these things are pretty valuable, especially in pairs, so for $500 it seems like a relatively low-risk investment. But it's also a massive couple of amps, and my other inventory might consign them to backup duty.

Would love to hear your thoughts if you have 'em!
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  #2  
Old 01-15-2013, 03:46 PM
Mistick Krewe Mistick Krewe is offline
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I know a guy in upstate NY that will work on them....

I shipped several his way a few years ago that Ipicked up on liquidation from a local medical facility
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  #3  
Old 01-16-2013, 12:56 PM
herbalpudding herbalpudding is offline
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Did you enjoy using them? What did you end up using them to power?
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  #4  
Old 01-16-2013, 06:02 PM
Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson is offline
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Hi,

Two M 600 amplifiers are capable of delivering 4000 watts. Two PSA-2 are capable of delivering 2800 watts. You really won’t need the PSA-2 amplifiers unless you are planning to use all the amplifiers in a bi-amp/tri-amp configuration.

Best Regards,
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  #5  
Old 01-16-2013, 07:00 PM
charles0322 charles0322 is offline
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I really recommend using the M600 on your subs, the PSA-2 on midbass.. and then crown d75's or d150 for hi-end in a tri-amp config. I really like the sound of the older Crown amps and I have a bunch lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot Thompson
Hi,

Two M 600 amplifiers are capable of delivering 4000 watts. Two PSA-2 are capable of delivering 2800 watts. You really won’t need the PSA-2 amplifiers unless you are planning to use all the amplifiers in a bi-amp/tri-amp configuration.

Best Regards,
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  #6  
Old 01-16-2013, 11:13 PM
Mistick Krewe Mistick Krewe is offline
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unfortunately, they were configured as power supply units when I got them
(for him)

he does thE conversion....

I understand they ended up in a high end home theater on sub duty
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  #7  
Old 01-17-2013, 01:38 PM
herbalpudding herbalpudding is offline
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I like where your head is at Charles! If I bought these M-600s, this would be my lineup:

Sub bass - 2 Crown M-600
Mid bass - 2 Crown PSA-2
Horns - 2 Crown D-150
Tweeters - 1 Crown D-60

Booth: BGW 750C

Not bad, now I just need some Berthas for the price of zero dollars and I'm golden!
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  #8  
Old 01-17-2013, 05:27 PM
charles0322 charles0322 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herbalpudding
I like where your head is at Charles! If I bought these M-600s, this would be my lineup:

Sub bass - 2 Crown M-600
Mid bass - 2 Crown PSA-2
Horns - 2 Crown D-150
Tweeters - 1 Crown D-60

Booth: BGW 750C

Not bad, now I just need some Berthas for the price of zero dollars and I'm golden!

Yeah this is a nice setup for clean sound that you can tweak to get the right balance.

the Emeralds would be a nice home project but they are still half the size of the bertha and maybe a lil too big.

I'm planning on building a couple subs this summer for some 2226,s I have collecting dust
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  #9  
Old 01-18-2013, 02:51 PM
bretflute bretflute is offline
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hijack time!!!

hey charles - not to hijack the thread...but... ive been using 12 inch subs for a while now... i only have a vw bug!!! hahaha i use 2224s in a direct radiating design but im going to start messing with a few other designs. i like the hd15 design from a romaian site... im gonna try to shrink it down for a 12" driver... i do mostly house parties a dont really need sub sub bass... i hpf 'em at 40 or 50 hz and they really rock out some tight bass. some times i face em toward the wall sometimes straight for the dance floor all depending on the room... would love to hear your ideas for your new boxes!!! keep us posted here or at speakerplans!!
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  #10  
Old 01-18-2013, 10:49 PM
charles0322 charles0322 is offline
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Mine are not portable.. they will weigh in excess of 280lbs, sand filled mdf or hdf sandwich. its a design Ive had for a while from a guy called Stig Tangen http://www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1014/

Quote:
Originally Posted by bretflute
hey charles - not to hijack the thread...but... ive been using 12 inch subs for a while now... i only have a vw bug!!! hahaha i use 2224s in a direct radiating design but im going to start messing with a few other designs. i like the hd15 design from a romaian site... im gonna try to shrink it down for a 12" driver... i do mostly house parties a dont really need sub sub bass... i hpf 'em at 40 or 50 hz and they really rock out some tight bass. some times i face em toward the wall sometimes straight for the dance floor all depending on the room... would love to hear your ideas for your new boxes!!! keep us posted here or at speakerplans!!
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  #11  
Old 01-20-2013, 04:41 PM
bretflute bretflute is offline
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wow!!! thats some sub!!! stig doesnt miss a trick... hahaha let me ask you something-- in his driver page he mentions that jbl puts the positive terminal on the black and not the red(!!!???)... is this common knowledge?? its the first time ive heard about it... do i need to go in and rewire all my subs??? why do they not sound out of phase with my selenium loaded subs?? maybe i should start a new thread...
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  #12  
Old 01-20-2013, 04:46 PM
bretflute bretflute is offline
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and he says 160kilos thats more like 350 lbs without the driver.... doubt it will fit in my bug....hahaha
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  #13  
Old 01-20-2013, 11:06 PM
charles0322 charles0322 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bretflute
and he says 160kilos thats more like 350 lbs without the driver.... doubt it will fit in my bug....hahaha

I know thats crazy, eh?

oh well, Ill prob have to put off building them until I have somewhere to use them.. right now nearfield tannoy 6" are the order of the day and they still piss off the neighbours!!

not sure at all about the thing about the + terminal on the black.. I must have missed that part. This guy was cool when I asked questions by email.

Start a new thread.. but this one can evolve into a sub discussion or a multi-way system requirements and specification thread.. from filtering to amplification choices to construction techniques and boxes.
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  #14  
Old 01-21-2013, 02:23 PM
SBS Designs SBS Designs is offline
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psa 2 on midbass

Quote:
Originally Posted by charles0322
I really recommend using the M600 on your subs, the PSA-2 on midbass.. and then crown d75's or d150 for hi-end in a tri-amp config. I really like the sound of the older Crown amps and I have a bunch lol

with a input sensitivity of 2 volts to drive? sry cant agree at all, terrible amp for midbass, that amp was designed for SUBS. even with the show co and boho mods was bad sounding, wld be loud for wedges which is why sho co used them, but not for sound quality in a critical area, which is why it was caled by many PSA2 = Pretty Shi%^y AMP 2. DC 300 was adored by many on midbass, but def NOT PSA2..

Even with the crown module to adjust the input section was still bad in the mid band and when it clipped wasent pleasent at all on mids.

You want a good sounding vintage midbass amp BGW 750b , which is why psa 2 was ALWAY`S used on sub horns the only thing it was good for IMO.

750B paired with the PSA2 on subs, horns only to color the sound of your subbass worked well.

For ported boxes & for clean subbass, i wld look at other amps as well, PSA2 isnt clean enough and it cld be a hard sounding amp ESP when clipping happens

Last edited by SBS Designs : 01-21-2013 at 06:16 PM.
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  #15  
Old 01-22-2013, 12:25 AM
charles0322 charles0322 is offline
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I have to admit, I am more familiar with the D-150s2 and DC-300 and PS-200.. I thought the PSA-2 were comparable or better than the DC-300 for midbass, but I stand corrected.

In Montreal there was a club here called the Limelight where all the amplifiers were BGW 750B or G and they had so many of them apparently.. lol that was before my time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBS Designs
with a input sensitivity of 2 volts to drive? sry cant agree at all, terrible amp for midbass, that amp was designed for SUBS. even with the show co and boho mods was bad sounding, wld be loud for wedges which is why sho co used them, but not for sound quality in a critical area, which is why it was caled by many PSA2 = Pretty Shi%^y AMP 2. DC 300 was adored by many on midbass, but def NOT PSA2..

Even with the crown module to adjust the input section was still bad in the mid band and when it clipped wasent pleasent at all on mids.

You want a good sounding vintage midbass amp BGW 750b , which is why psa 2 was ALWAY`S used on sub horns the only thing it was good for IMO.

750B paired with the PSA2 on subs, horns only to color the sound of your subbass worked well.

For ported boxes & for clean subbass, i wld look at other amps as well, PSA2 isnt clean enough and it cld be a hard sounding amp ESP when clipping happens
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  #16  
Old 01-22-2013, 06:54 AM
allen allen is offline
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I had a PSA2 and used it on subs and liked the sound. I never tried it full range or on any thing else. If you get one with the balanced input module you won't need as hot of an input signal to get full output and you can still feed it with an un balanced signal.

When I i sold it on eBay it was quickly scooped up by Ocean Way in California.

AL
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  #17  
Old 01-23-2013, 10:27 AM
Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBS Designs
with a input sensitivity of 2 volts to drive? sry cant agree at all, terrible amp for midbass, that amp was designed for SUBS.

The input voltage has nothing to do with the amplifier's capablilty of playing mid bass. Any professional preamplifier or crossover can deliver 2 volts at its output.

The PSA-2 can play any frequency from DC - 20 kHz. Why would say the PSA-2 is a terrible amp for midbass?

Best Regards,
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  #18  
Old 01-24-2013, 06:10 AM
SBS Designs SBS Designs is offline
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yes it can play

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot Thompson
The input voltage has nothing to do with the amplifier's capablilty of playing mid bass. Any professional preamplifier or crossover can deliver 2 volts at its output.

The PSA-2 can play any frequency from DC - 20 kHz. Why would say the PSA-2 is a terrible amp for midbass?

Best Regards,

to 20 k so can a Mcintosh 2200, which i used at Stereo for 1 weekend on 4 tweeter arrays, sounded like DEATH and pulled it rt off the next day, HATED the way the Mac sounded on the high freq tweeters, to dark, al the air and shimmer was GONE, no sizzle Both Morales and I hated it & the 2200 amp CAN go up as its rated wouldnt you agree?.


I have heard the PSA in many areas of sound and HAVE a bunch collecting dust, and HATED it on my 15s, in the pro aps in the clubs, you NEVER used crown on anything but tweeters, Horns with a D150 & subs with only a BOHO modified PSA2 out of the box was nothing to rt home about. for the 15s was in most cases BGW 750s,

Even back when, & the legendary clubs were happening and u cld use a psa with more power then the 750, u still used the 750b for its fidelity and BASS. the psa was hard and to lean sounding in the mid band & when it clipped it was a HARD clip wld be to audable in the midband, The PSA had that shreaded kick which made the Levans SLAM while the Midbass gave you that robust sound. You needed that for that kinda horn to come alive.

Last edited by SBS Designs : 01-24-2013 at 06:28 AM.
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  #19  
Old 01-24-2013, 08:02 AM
Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBS Designs
to 20 k so can a Mcintosh 2200, which i used at Stereo for 1 weekend on 4 tweeter arrays, sounded like DEATH and pulled it rt off the next day, HATED the way the Mac sounded on the high freq tweeters, to dark, al the air and shimmer was GONE, no sizzle Both Morales and I hated it & the 2200 amp CAN go up as its rated wouldnt you agree?.

That would be more related to how the loudspeaker is reacting to amplifier.
Loudspeakers differ greatly based on their parameters. So what may sound horrible using the McIntosh 2200 on particular model of a loudspeaker may sound excellent on another speaker offering a different model number.

Quote:
I have heard the PSA in many areas of sound and HAVE a bunch collecting dust, and HATED it on my 15s, in the pro aps in the clubs, you NEVER used crown on anything but tweeters, Horns with a D150 & subs with only a BOHO modified PSA2 out of the box was nothing to rt home about. for the 15s was in most cases BGW 750s,

Even back when, & the legendary clubs were happening and u cld use a psa with more power then the 750, u still used the 750b for its fidelity and BASS. the psa was hard and to lean sounding in the mid band & when it clipped it was a HARD clip wld be to audable in the midband, The PSA had that shreaded kick which made the Levans SLAM while the Midbass gave you that robust sound. You needed that for that kinda horn to come alive.

That’s because BGW offers an input/output comparator, which enables a compressor to soft clip the output once the amplifier being driven beyond clip. The Crown PSA-2 offers an input/output comparator as well but it does not offer a compressor. This is due to Crown assuming the user will reduce the level once the IOC indicators blink brightly.

If you are driving both amplifiers hard, the BGW 750 will not sound distorted compared to the Crown PSA-2 due to the compressor is cutting back the power whereas the Crown will not and introduce distortion the harder you drive it into clip. If you are not clipping the amplifier severely, you will not have any problems using the Crown PSA-2 for mid bass.

Best Regards,
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  #20  
Old 01-24-2013, 12:22 PM
charles0322 charles0322 is offline
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Interesting!

Especially since the PSA-2 are kinda rare on ebay and fetch higher prices than other vintage amps.. Along with their "use" at the Paradise Garage I "thought" they were a very good amp.

We have an old PSA-2 in the studio that used to power the NS10,s. I should plug it in and do some tests on what I hear, we all hear different at times.. and sound is subjective and personal too. if I get some time I will test the PSA-2 vs. the DC-300 we have, pushing these things to clip is not fun.. so I would tend to agree that in most cases you dont want these amps to clip "but" in real life club applications it's "gonna" happen.

As for the Mac on the tweeters, I think it was more than one night at Stereo it was in use.. I know you were trying all kinds of different equipment at that time to dial in the system. This was my favorite time to look at the equipment driving the system and drooling over Brystons LOL Shows you what God can do when he has the money :P
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  #21  
Old 01-24-2013, 02:16 PM
Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles0322
Interesting!

Especially since the PSA-2 are kinda rare on ebay and fetch higher prices than other vintage amps.. Along with their "use" at the Paradise Garage I "thought" they were a very good amp.

The PSA-2 is very good amplifier. But even a very good amplifier driven heavily into clip is not going to sound good. By the way, the SA-2 (pre-dating the PSA-2) is the rare one and fetches much more than the PSA-2.

Quote:
We have an old PSA-2 in the studio that used to power the NS10,s. I should plug it in and do some tests on what I hear, we all hear different at times.. and sound is subjective and personal too. if I get some time I will test the PSA-2 vs. the DC-300 we have, pushing these things to clip is not fun.. so I would tend to agree that in most cases you dont want these amps to clip "but" in real life club applications it's "gonna" happen.

I own a DC 300A and an SA-2. The SA-2 (PSA-2) offers a bigger power supply in addition is 2-ohm rated and, offers more power than the DC 300A. The PSA-2 also offers more output transistors than the DC 300A.

The M 600 was later named the Delta Omega 2000. The M 600 offers much more current than the PSA-2 in addition to having more power.

I can't see any benefit stepping down to lower wattage amplifiers unless you want more distortion. The available power will be beneficial for headroom, which equates to a cleaner sound.

I recall stepping up from a QSC EX 4000 (1250 per channel @ 4 ohms) to a QSC PL 6.0 (2500 per channel @ 4 ohms) on mid bass because I did not like having the clip light on the QSC EX 4000 triggering once in a while. If you are clipping your amplifier constantly, you need a bigger amplifier or more speakers for better coverage.

Stepping down from 440 watts per channel (PSA-2) @ 4 ohms to 305 watts per channel (DC 300) @ 4 ohms is only going to make matters worse due to losing headroom.

Quote:
As for the Mac on the tweeters, I think it was more than one night at Stereo it was in use.. I know you were trying all kinds of different equipment at that time to dial in the system. This was my favorite time to look at the equipment driving the system and drooling over Brystons LOL Shows you what God can do when he has the money :P

The McIntosh MC 2200 offers a valve preamplifier and transistor outputs. Valves do not sound like Transistors so I would imagine it is the valve sound that SBS Designs did not like.

Sometimes you need to go beyond the outer shell of an audio amplifier to find out what is taking place.

Best Regards,
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