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  #1  
Old 02-10-2005, 04:28 PM
LiTheTech LiTheTech is offline
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Turntable Isolation in Club Systems

Here's a real dozey for all of you veterans:

With a club system containing 32 18" x 2 long-throw sub cabinets, it almost seems impossible to isolate the turntables. When all known methods of isolating using cylinder blocks, suspention boxes with rubber bands or surgical tubing fail to solve the problem what's next? Would building a booth out of solid concrete help? How thick would the walls be and how high? What acoustic materials are used to isolated the floors?
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  #2  
Old 02-10-2005, 05:21 PM
benjaminb benjaminb is offline
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moving the booth is still causing problems eh?

i have no solutions, but i wanted to ask you which new mixers you were getting in - you told me the other week, but it was loud and i'm not sure i heard you right.

sorry for the highjack, and good luck.
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  #3  
Old 02-10-2005, 05:31 PM
djnick01 djnick01 is offline
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Hey there!

I always thought that in extereme situations like this it might be an idea to take some kind of putty or plasticene and shove it into all the potentially resonant ares of a the underside of a deck.
Into the cavities, and add to the mass of the deck.

Adding more damping mass to the chassis would be a continuation of the already very damped construction of an SL1200.

Some carts seem more resonant to feedback than others ( I think )

Maybe adding a smidge of damping between the cart and the headshell might help. I once had an SME tonearm that supplied some black plasticene type gunk for this purpose.

Cheers, Nick
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  #4  
Old 02-10-2005, 06:25 PM
LiTheTech LiTheTech is offline
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benjamin

there are some models being throw around here and there. it's not 100% yet. the opinion of rotary with an isolator (either 3 or 5 way) and a fader mixer are being discussed.


Nick

What do you think about using sand in some way? sounds ghetto but you got to do what you got to do.

Last edited by LiTheTech : 02-10-2005 at 11:39 PM.
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  #5  
Old 02-10-2005, 06:41 PM
Richi Richi is offline
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Sand has excellent damping properties. I beleive Rob Ashworth may want to chip in here and tell us about the technique he uses.

With the advent of Nano technology new vibration control platforms were developed, though these are very costly.

Isolation

I would also point to the platter of the 1200, this baby can ring and you may want to look at a sorebathane platter matt and add some glass paper which will allow back cue.
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Last edited by Richi : 02-02-2011 at 06:46 PM.
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  #6  
Old 02-10-2005, 06:48 PM
LiTheTech LiTheTech is offline
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Richi

Nano technology looks very promising. there are 16 sub cabinets (long throw) facing the booth from the opposite end of the dance floor, I believe during the trail runs that their was also air born feedback as well as structural. Hopefully the concrete wall with stop the bass waves from penetrating through.

Last edited by LiTheTech : 03-13-2005 at 10:39 PM.
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  #7  
Old 02-10-2005, 06:55 PM
see and do see and do is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richi
Sand has excellent damping properties. I beleive Rob Ashworth may want to chip in here and tell us about the technique he uses.


Have you read about the sandbox isolation system....

basically it's a sealed box platform (four sides and a bottom)that is big enough to hold your TTs; filled with sand. The TTs are then placed onto a large slab of marble or other stone that does not touch the bottom or sides of the box, it only rests on the sand....


don't know how it works, and have not seen one in person -- I found the article doing a search on TT isolation on google....


good luck
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  #8  
Old 02-10-2005, 06:59 PM
LiTheTech LiTheTech is offline
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see and do

I have heard of other clubs using a similiar sand isolating system where the decks are in bedded right in the wall of sand and it has worked for them from what I hear.

Last edited by LiTheTech : 02-10-2005 at 11:45 PM.
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  #9  
Old 02-10-2005, 07:00 PM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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You can find a neat way to isolate turntables at this site: www.isonoe.com

The isolators are installed in several UK clubs, and are currently under evaluation in certain NY installations I'm told.

Some of the more cynical members may view the product as a development of the old rubber bands / ashtray method, but it has several other strengths: the balls in the base (work like a spike), the high magnesium content alloy (SME use magnesium alloy for their tonearms as it's very inert acoustically) and the cradle which not only provides compliance (as with any suspension assembly), but also prevents the transmission of vibration on account of the elastomer blocking its path.

In installations where feedback is not an issue you notice an immediate difference in HF clarity (obviously this range is most sensitive to vibrational disturbance in the case of a stylus tracking the groove), and Iíve heard some users had to bring down the HF section of their Eqs to compensate.

The system has been independently tested by the renowned Institute of Sound and Vibration Research at Southampton University, and Iím told the soon-to-be-published data proves the system supplies considerable attenuation to unwanted vibration.

I have a set on the turntable in my studio, and was surprised to hear the difference. Give it a try if you donít believe me.

Cheers,
Justin
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  #10  
Old 02-10-2005, 07:12 PM
see and do see and do is offline
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someone had posted about those feet before...

and no one had used them -- it seems that you like them.... How much does a set run?
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  #11  
Old 02-10-2005, 07:16 PM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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You can get a UK price from the dealer link on their site, but I'm not sure if they're available in the US yet.

Although the dollar-pound ratio is bad at the moment, I would guess the US price will be the same as UK because the UK price includes VAT.

J

edit: Go here: http://www.decks.co.uk/products/acce...ssories/isonoe

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  #12  
Old 02-10-2005, 07:24 PM
benjaminb benjaminb is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richi

With the advent of Nano technology new vibration control platforms were developed, though these are very costly.

Isolation



that's wicked, i was just going to post asking if anyone was doing active isolation.
this seems like it could help out Li's problems a lot, as from what i understand, it would also compensate for the vibrating air as well as the floor.
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  #13  
Old 02-10-2005, 07:25 PM
see and do see and do is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by LiTheTech
see and do

I know of another club using a similiar sand isolating system similiar that one and it has worked for them from what I hear.


here is the link to the sandbox paper...

http://www.deadwaxcafe.com/vzone/sandbox.asp
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  #14  
Old 02-10-2005, 07:43 PM
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www.isonoe.com

Its a shame that the isonoe means dispensing with the original Technics foot. These original feet feel like rubber with silicone type fluid inside but will only cope with vibration of a limited amplitude, presumeably the isonoe will be better and cope with larger and lower frequencys.

Anyway, I'm not a veteran but here is what I do to try and elimnate nasty noises.

You will need to turn up the gain on the mixer to normal high volumes of the night, have a assistant to control the gain in the event of feedback to protect the system from damage.

Have the needle on the vinyl with the plater stopped.

Remember that the phono connections and the cables from the decks are very microphonic, that includes the earth lead. Sometimes if they touch each other or something else the hum and buzz adds to your problems. Re-route and play around until there is no background noise. TURN DOWN MASTER GAIN BEFORE TOUCHING. Your primary noise source will be the phono stage but you should have a noise floor 70db down. My Rane MP2016 was subjectively very clean sounding and low noise.

Once these are good I just hold onto the deck first with the needle resting and then the record playing. YEP! The bass won't go through your body and you are a better isolator than any gadget. If you still have bass feedback its in the air and you will need to absorb some bass reflections.
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  #15  
Old 02-10-2005, 07:58 PM
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Caution

You can mute your top end on the crossovers for safety if atempting to hold the deck. Have the assistant help if needed.

I won't ask silly questions about low cut on the subs as all that must have be programed in correctly. I'm sure all the basic things have been covered.

I did ask about suspending decks once, its in the archive somwhere.

I would guess the 1200 will work up to about 110db from experience but anybody who has measured booth levels is can chip in.
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  #16  
Old 02-10-2005, 08:13 PM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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Quote:
Its a shame that the isonoe means dispensing with the original Technics foot. These original feet feel like rubber with silicone type fluid inside but will only cope with vibration of a limited amplitude, presumeably the isonoe will be better and cope with larger and lower frequencys.

I was told they have an isolation platform designed for the hi-fi market, but I have yet to see it.

Peace,
Justin
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  #17  
Old 02-10-2005, 08:44 PM
darrylfunk darrylfunk is offline
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quasi pseudo physics

you have to be very careful and just try things,
we have tried many methods of decoupling , damping and isolating
and there are problems with all of them.
adding the standard turntable to a huge mass ends up with the car crash scenario of juggernaut hitting motorcycle ( deck being the bike)
as the larger mass stores more low frequency energy and then displaces it back into the deck.
putting the deck on sand can destabilise the deck and cause lo rate wow and flutters with the arms natural resonance .
putting the deck on decent isolating suspension feet that are light and then onto a very stiff but light constrained layer board works the best for me . a ply of balsa,cork , timber and maybe some acrylic all glued up with thin spreading of glue works far better than a paving slab or bit of granite.
you are trying to couple and decouple at the same time which we all know to be rather impossible. light masses react quicker and seem to damage the bass notes timbre and timing less .really heavy stands can make bass a bit one note or monophonic for a better description as the bass seems to blur into one big thump.
my current stand is light -ish stiff birch ply and mdf with holes cut to reduce weigth with a spiked platform made of a constrained layered board with isonoe feet on the decks, the spikes are in a tripod setting to reduce rocking modes ( milk maids stool - comprende' )and this has been the most succesful to date but i dont play in a huge spl room and so its not to bad. and my mixer sits on sorbathane feet to reduce microphony and i have a decent ish mains supply.
good luck.
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  #18  
Old 02-10-2005, 08:54 PM
Richi Richi is offline
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The bass will travel through the concreate though it will drop in db.

There are a number of areas on the 1200 that can be treated acoustical to help reduce airborne resonance. Anywhere with an air pocket will act as a resonator and should be damped. The tube of the tonearm can filled with visco-elastic material, this can effect performance if overdone. A spare tonerarm for testing with is essential.. The baseplate of tonearm where the lead out wires are terminited should be treated also.

This product works well Quite Kote
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Last edited by Richi : 02-02-2011 at 06:46 PM.
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  #19  
Old 02-10-2005, 09:13 PM
robashworth robashworth is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richi
I beleive Rob Ashworth may want to chip in here and tell us about the technique he uses.



Didn't know anyone on here was aware of our isolation technique - how d'ya know about it, Richi?!

But since you mention it, we do have something pretty special which we call the 'Wobbly'. We have them made by an audiophile turntable boffin - I can't tell you about what goes on inside it (mostly because I don't understand it!), but the result is a second-order mechanical filter, as opposed to the first-order filter created by the more traditional techniques.

They're amazing devices - the low frequency isolation is so good that you can stand the isolated deck on a table, and shake the table without the deck skipping. The deck looks like it's swaying around, but it's actually an illusion - only the table is moving, and the deck's staying in the same place! So aswell as being incredibly effective at preventing bass feedback, they also get over the old bouncy-dancefloor syndrome...
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  #20  
Old 02-11-2005, 04:04 AM
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There's been some talk on the subject before on this board.
Check out these threads for some ideas:
http://www.wavemusic.com/community/s...&threadid=3203
http://www.wavemusic.com/community/s...&threadid=3240

Also check this one out:
http://www.theloftnyc.com/isolationvibration.html
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Last edited by daniels : 02-11-2005 at 04:07 AM.
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  #21  
Old 02-11-2005, 06:20 AM
darrylfunk darrylfunk is offline
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to rob

hi rob,
are you using the townsend seismic sinks or are they one
of the ball bearing / cup based tables.
the seismic sinks are fantastic cos they isolate in 3 dimensions were
most isolate in 2d.
can you let me know what make or who is making yours.
if you can get an electron microscope servo stand they are mental.
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  #22  
Old 02-11-2005, 05:01 PM
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would make me sea sick...

What about a floating coffin?

http://www.dualsf.com
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  #23  
Old 02-11-2005, 05:43 PM
pbellsound pbellsound is offline
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We've had the flying rig at Webster Hall for several years now. We recently installed some panels as closure on the open faced stage and we're now able to put the DJ rig directly on the stage. Our rig has the industry standard rubber banded boards under the turntables. I never got around to upgrading to the ashtrys, PBell Sound has been busy!!

PB
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  #24  
Old 02-23-2005, 03:06 PM
JOEY MADONIA JOEY MADONIA is offline
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Turntable Isolation. Just what you have been looking for.
Check this product out.And you can leave the original feet on your turntable .It realy works, it's the joint.
www.custommade.cc
click on ELIMINATOR
Let me know what you think. lstd@bellsouth.net
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  #25  
Old 02-23-2005, 03:47 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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LOOK WHOSE HERE!

Joey, how are you? Really long time no speak! Hows the family, hope all is well.
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