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  #26  
Old 07-11-2009, 11:49 PM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reticuli
Not in my experience. The cheap ones are better than most DJ tips. Lower distortion. Lower tracking. And I get better cueing than ATP, 680EL, or Grado.

The 680 on my SL is rock solid..I have not had it skip in months, not once it jumped out the groove
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  #27  
Old 07-12-2009, 01:31 AM
Reticuli Reticuli is offline
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even when cueing?
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  #28  
Old 07-12-2009, 08:47 AM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reticuli
even when cueing?

Thats what I meant, in forward play I never had issues only with the 681SE which doesn't like modern wax, that will jump out the groove cos of the loud vinyl. The 680EL though doesnt ever skip on forward play or back cueing with me...and that's with anti-skate set.

The 680EL II has stiffer suspension and needs to track heavyer than the Mk1 also the newer V3's have this too, some of the older v3's had a more compliant suspension like on the mk1 but out of 6 set's I have only had 2 that were nice and squigy.
The 680EL II I track at 3G's, anything below and it will have issue playing some loud records.
The 680EL mk1 I can play at 2.5 with no issue and play any record
the 680Ev3 is hit and miss what type of suspension you get lol if it's the stiffer one track it at 3G
I never tried the 680El mk2 on my 1210's but I had these on my Numarks and the suspension was soft...on the Numarks it was a nightmare cueing with Stanton, Ortofon's were ok
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  #29  
Old 07-12-2009, 09:11 AM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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You know it would be so much easyer if I wasn't so fussy hahahah the Night Club E sounded great on the A&H Xone 3D I had before the Urei-1620 lol
Where's the Nightclub didn't sound as nice on my Denon or my Marantz pre-amp at the time either and not that pleasing to my ear on the Urei at all.
You know what...the Xone 42 looks realy nice....really nice lol wish I had two mixers that I could change in/out when I get bored of one lol
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  #30  
Old 07-12-2009, 11:49 AM
bossa nolyx bossa nolyx is offline
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Originally Posted by der geile ami
I gave up on the white label after they kept breaking stylii. At one club, the bar manager would remove them after every party and they were consistently damaged upon reinstallation. This never happens with ortofons. It is but a mere anecdote, but given the intended usage environment, potential sound quality and tracking takes second place to working at all.

Ortofons of various colors are completely dominant in berlin
Hmm..
You're not the first who told this, but I have the whitelabels for about 2 years now. They never got damaged. I changed the needles only one time. In MY experience they are realy heavy carts.

I use them on 1210s with about 2.4g.
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  #31  
Old 07-12-2009, 12:17 PM
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I find the Whitelabels too boomy. Especially through my DJR400 for some reason? Way too much bass. Just not a fan in general.
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  #32  
Old 07-12-2009, 04:29 PM
Reticuli Reticuli is offline
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Yes, the WL is boomy. Not too bad on the Biamps or the PPD01, but PPD9000 & Xone it certainly is. I think the PPD9000 has the most accurate lower mids of any of the mixers I've got, so you really can see just how weird a lot of carts are. Send in a high quality line level, and it's the only one that will preserve the lower midrange warmth accurately...too accurately in the case of a lot of carts. I give the middle&upper mids to the Xone, but the lower ones seem to be a problem with getting the phasing right on other mixers. Even the PPD01 robs the lower mids (and the bass) of width and phase coherency for some reason. Anyway, back to the WL. It sounds fairly dark, with big boomy bass and extra lift up top (so recessed middle/upper mids) when there isn't a mixer to compensate. Sometimes, I find that boom and lower-mid warmth to be alluring, though. The TCC pre seems to entice me with it, until I try mixing some other tracks that just turn into a messy, muddy, boomy swath down in the lowest octaves in-the-mix. And out it goes. Strait into the Xone, it's boomy, but has almost no lower mids at all, so the mud's reduced. Needs me a little warmth, though. The WL suspension is indeed fragile and probably also too compliant for its slightly too high effective tip mass.

The most freakishly neutral cart I have is the plain old Stanton 500ALII. It's not extended enough at the top or bottom, needs a lower-mass cantilever made out of carbon fiber, and an elliptical diamond for more resolution, but it kicks booty. I'd be content with just the original 500EL back. Lower mids are flat and phase correct. The current cantilevers are too high mass to give me confidence they're not thrashing my records.

From the specs, the suspension on the 680 E has never changed. Even if it had, VTF is dictated by effective tip mass, not suspension. You can use stiff, low tip mass MCs at very low VTF with sufficiently-massy arms. Maybe you're just seeing production variation? I have 11 of them in various mk, and the only difference is the first generation had a thicker cantilever and was white. They've always been about 13.5Um/mN compliance. The SL & SE were stiffer. Considering the ELII/eV3 cantilevers are plenty durable, the extra thickness on the original cannot possibly be beneficial. Did you ever callibrate your setup with a test record on the original? It clearly needed 3 grams just on the most straitforward tests. The ELII does just as well at only 1.75 grams, with superior performance at a full 2 grams.

As far as tracking downforce, this is mostly dictated by two things: high frequency distortion (fim, micro tracking, pinch, etc) and low frequency distortion. If you're experiencing bass and/or midrange breakup (mids only go south because the bass is), then you need to add the headshell weights and move the counterweight back to compensate. Gives you more inertia so tiny deviations from the groove's largest modulations (big bass) aren't enough to cause arm resonances. The technics headshell is very light, so that doesn't surprise me. You might want to try the Stanton headshells with them. Use the 1200 headshells for high compliance styli.

The concorde body is 18.5 grams, so it's the equivolent of having extra weight on your headshells. Tends to match Dj arms just right to compensate for being medium mass. The only dj arm I know of that's heavy enough to not need the extra mass is the new J arm designs from Vestax.
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  #33  
Old 07-16-2009, 09:31 AM
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i owned several "dj carts" in the past... stanton 500/680 EL (MK1), shure M44/M35, ortofon nightclub concorde EL (MK1). i also own a shure V15 for listening. i'm using "grado dj200i" since the "improved" version came out, and i have to say that's the most transparent-flat-fullbody-natural sounding dj cartridge i ever heard. period. their fidelity is superb. other dj carts are really coloured giving a sense of forwarded frequencies on certain areas of the spectrum. i also don't see why this beautiful sounding product should be ok with that "kind of music" and not for "this kind of music": in my opinion this stylus shines with every nuance of "new" and "old" recordings. i've listen from my old LPs and classic 12" till the latest dubstep release or delsin label techno track passing through contemporary stuff from raster-noton german label ... everything sounds terrific! i'm also saving for the "gold" version which i'll use for transfer my vinyl to the digital world or more serious listening. a friend of mine has a gold on his "hifi-reference" system and it's absolutely amazing for the price. to be honest the skipping problems so often described around is not an issue for me: i use dj200i on my 1210s (with its standard "S" arm, technics shell without extra weight and "eliminators" feets by joey madonia), without any problems, tracking at 2.0/2.5 grams. for example my ortofon nightclubs jumps more than the dj200i and pops out often from the groove while playing some new heavy-lowend-bass material. well... none of these problems with the grados. for best results a proper turntable adjustment is required and a gentle approach to the mix makes this grado model very usable even if for the "modern" club-environment they are too "esoteric" and sensitive in my opinion. these carts are simply the best compromise available today between quality and backcueing BUT if your hands are "caterpillars" please stay away from the grados and go with other brands or ... buy two cdjs.

Last edited by michele : 07-17-2009 at 09:01 AM.
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  #34  
Old 07-16-2009, 07:37 PM
Reticuli Reticuli is offline
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"example my ortofon nightclubs jumps more than the dj200i and pops out often from the groove while playing some new heavy-lowend-bass material. well... none of these problems with the grados."

The NCE has other problems, but that right there is your fault. The Grados are just more compliant. Low-end breakup is a matter of improper arm mass & cartridge compliance matching, rather than poor manufacturing or design defect. Are your Ortofons OM varients on technics headshells?

Which mixer you using?
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  #35  
Old 07-16-2009, 11:14 PM
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re ^^ what are the particular problems with the NCE?, I own Concordes of the Mk2 version and they soudn pretty sweet with my MP2016 but id love to be across any issue though (aside from it they sound fairly rubbish with xone mixers IMHO)

do you think the Grado DJ series are a serious upgrade over the NCE MK2 and also, what do peole recomend for ripping vinyl to digital?

sorry if these questions have been asked before, dont get on here as much as I like to.
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  #36  
Old 07-17-2009, 04:55 AM
Reticuli Reticuli is offline
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I haven't heard the mk2. They're a lower compliance tip and using the Super OM engine. They should be a slightly better match electrically with the Rane phonos. Way the hell overpriced, if you ask me. Ortofon claims their dj series tip mass is low, but they massively fail even the easiest micro tracking distortion and intermodulation distortion tests. The Xone phonos are all 330pF, which makes most carts sound rolled-off, bland, and midrangey. Their shit-for-bass doesn't help matters with vinyl which needs all the transient & phasing accuracy you can get to make up for its deficiencies. Supposedly, the Arkiv tip is just the NCE, by the way.

(Edit: that last sentence turned out to be incorrect)
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  #37  
Old 07-17-2009, 07:41 AM
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as said i have two concorde nightclub E (MK1) bought in year 2000, not the OM version: it was always been very difficult to adjust with my 1210s... believe me, i've tried a lot. a friend of mine has two new nightclub MK2 OM and they are simply a nightmare under many aspects! i use the dj200i through my rane mp2016 (MK1), urei 1620LE and my old technics SU-A40 preamplifier from mid 80es. also i had the chance to match the grados with an original urei 1620 ... different (but great) results everytime. i had also the opportunity to test nightclubs and grados with an allen&heat xone S2: not convincing results but again slightly better with the grados. but please don't listen to me guys... test for yourself... the best way always!

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  #38  
Old 07-17-2009, 09:23 AM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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I never had skipping issues with my old Concorde Night Club E mk1 on my 1210mk2's or my old set of 1200 mk'2 I used to have before the 1210's...
Tracking at 3G's was ok Also my DJs Concorde were ok on my old old old Numark TT-100's unlike the 680's which jumped and skipped like no ones biz.
Screw specs what about how they tune the sound and voice them...two carts may have the same specs and perform similar on paper but give totally different results...mainly down to the person who designed them and what he likes in a cart when he listens...
Although the tracking spec has a lot do do with it's sound and so do the pho-stage specs etc...but at the end of the day if it's not voiced how you like it having it set up all great will make no difference..you still won't like those Danish peoples ears lol
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  #39  
Old 07-17-2009, 03:53 PM
Reticuli Reticuli is offline
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Michelle, I wonder if your Technics lateral bearings are bad, or something. The Technics arm is over 12 grams of equivolent swing mass. Mk5 are even more. The concorde is 18.5 grams. That's more than enough for 9 Um/mN of dynamic lateral compliance, unless your tips were defective or there's a big range of manufacturing differences from tip to tip. Ortofon's vertical compliance is the same. You should be right in the sweet spot.

I wonder if the distribution of mass on the concorde is more in the back where that ring is that the handle attaches to. The ring can't be unscrewed off the concorde, can it? I know Shure designed the Whitelabels with more compliance AND more mass forward on the integrated design. Extra mass doesn't help dampen as much if it's recessed back. On my Numarks, the NCE sticks like glue on everything at 3.25-3.5 grams. If you go below that, it can have issues with loud bass. I imagine you'd not only have to keep the OM weight in, but add the headshell weight and the sandwich weight in there to get it down to 2.75-3 grams without bass breakup.

Anyway, they need at least 3 grams to clear up the highs. Ortofon says the Nightclub is only 0.5 gram tip mass, but my tests show that cannot be correct. You could try adding lead weights taped onto your concorde or the tonearm on that end, and maybe on the counterweight if it won't go back far enough. I tried that with the ATP to improve cueing, but they were already in the sweetspot without that. I stopped using those because they sounded a bit closed-in, hard, and gritty. Still nice on my PPD01 and the TCC preamps into the DM900, but doesn't match well with any other setup. Very compressed, almost harsh, forward, and lacking in spatiousness with the PPD9000. Gritty and dirty sounding on the Xone, that completely robbed vinyl of its refinement. The NCE and TCC is the best combo that works on the Xone 62, with maybe the 680ELII if you don't mind rolled off highs...can't use that on my suspension, though. I prefer hi-fi tips on the PPD9000, or even the 500ALII if I don't mind the slight treble distortion, lack of resolution with the spherical diamond, and lack of deep bass. I think its input capacitance might actually be fairly high like the Xones, but has MUCH better bass and is still very clear even with the roll-off. In fact, with one of my cheap pairs of hi-fis that people complain doesn't have enough bass, it goes deep and with extra warmth in the mid-bass. Dark even. 680's into the PPD9000 has by far the best lows and mids & cleanest highs, just way too much bass and totally lacking in treble. So it comes off dark, vieled, and bassy.

I'll get some more headshells and try the NCE with a lot more headshell mass to see if I can get the VTF down with good loud bass.

I previously owned the improved Grados, though. So I know what kind of sound you're getting. If your decks are quirky to the point of letting the DJ200i track everything at only 2.5 grams...hell, consider yourself lucky. So, 2.5 grams, with anti-skate, original technics headshells (mk2 or mk5 with the weight screw-ons spots?), and the tonearms down all the way, or what? No Grado hum? How is it handling minor record warps at so low a VTF?
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  #40  
Old 07-17-2009, 05:34 PM
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here is the recipe of my two SL-1210 MK2:

- 1 grado dj200i.
- 1 original technics headshell without any extra weight.
- 1 original technics "S" arm
- 1 ultra-cheap slipmat.
- 4 "eliminators" under the feets (replaced soon by isonoe feets)

the settings:

- tracking force usually set at 2.0... yes at 2.0 grado dj200i tracks very well for me.
if i want more skip resistance during backcueings, i set at 2.4/2.5. the weight ring can reach a maximum of 2.8 grams.

- anti-skating control set at 2.5. i've obtained this value playing a blank vinyl as usual.

- arm height control ring set at 2. the arm is perfectly horizontal to the vinyl during the playback.

- my decks are on perfect horizontal position.

that's all folks!



p.s.
reticuli, grado hum (noise)??? i really don't understand what are you talking about. never had a problem like this.

p.p.s.
i see the "backcueing" as a very sensitive and gentle practice. if the "backcueing" is intended from the mass as a complete hand-reverse-playback from the end to the beginning of a record without ANY jump... well, i suggest to glue a coin over the headshell so any kind of cartridge will be ok for a proper "dj use"...

p.p.p.s.
i don't work for the grado company.

Last edited by michele : 07-17-2009 at 06:24 PM.
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  #41  
Old 07-17-2009, 05:55 PM
ArmenianSoul ArmenianSoul is offline
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How about the 680 HP's, what is everyone's though on those?
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  #42  
Old 07-17-2009, 09:13 PM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmenianSoul
How about the 680 HP's, what is everyone's though on those?

Why ask about the HP? It's a shit version of the EL/681SE, I don't mind it but I wouldn't buy it over the EL or SE..or actualy pay money for it...
It's a club needle for sure...Hyped up loud output, emphasised loud boomy bass (but not the real deep shit imo), spherical stylus and a load of other stuff...leave it out unless you do a lot of scratching tricks..that needle tracks quite well.
well this is how I dj... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taYrz...e=channel_page

yeah that third record does realy play inside out...
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  #43  
Old 07-18-2009, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinyl_junkie
The 680 on my SL is rock solid..I have not had it skip in months, not once it jumped out the groove
That only says you've set it up correctly.. Nothing on sound quality..

I know some guys here don't like ortofon OM/Concorde at all, But I love the sound and most of all handling of my Concorde Arkivs (elliptical styli). Nightclub E is also very acceptable imo.

Last edited by voltcontrol : 07-18-2009 at 10:49 AM.
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  #44  
Old 07-18-2009, 02:09 PM
Reticuli Reticuli is offline
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Heh heh. The Arkiv E and NCE are the same, just different colors. Ort told me their lateral compliance is slightly different, but Big Bopper has said they're the same. So if you've got white decks, that might be a good choice. I just can't figure out how they have so much high frequency distortion with a stated tip mass the same as some of Ort's hifi tips.

The Grado Hum is due to there being no nikel in their cart bodies' shell. They are suseptable to picking up EM interference from power supplies & direct drive motors. Move the cart over the record with the power on and the volume up. Listen for hums. Not every turntable mates well with Grados, even some belt drives.
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  #45  
Old 07-18-2009, 04:34 PM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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Thanks for confirming this, I couldn't be arsed asking Ortofon about the Arkiv cos to me they looked pretty much the same as the NCE on paper...
It's so sooo funny they now market the "old" and "out dated" as some American ort rep told me the original mk1 NCE is when I said the mk2 looks bollocks for errrm archiving wax lol
For the price they sell for in the UK you can get a better hi-fi archiving chart from most manufacturers..be it Shure, Grado, Goldring, Audio Technica and hell even Ortofon lol which is why the Arkiv is the biggest load of markeing hoo haa allong with the Gold which IS the SAME as the mk1 NCE...so with all this doesnt this say hey the mk2 NCE realy is worse...they made it even more for club use thus will sound worse
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Old 07-18-2009, 04:44 PM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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Oh regarding the roll off on the 680...what roll off? they sound way more extended than the NCE on my system and way more neuteral..hell MUSIC is coming out not sound but music.
I compared the NCE's responce to the 680EL's to see if I could see them roll off many times and they both seem to roll off at the same frequencies in the real world using normal music vinyl.
Although not a very scientific test I recorded the same songs in wavelab and then when playing back I analysed both and took a snapshot of both of the responce curves..VERY simmilar looking.
Who the hell can hear 18-20k at their age now any way after years of DJ'ing???
18k was my upper limmit when I was like 20..god knows what it's now almost beeing 24
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  #47  
Old 07-18-2009, 08:50 PM
voltcontrol voltcontrol is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinyl_junkie
Thanks for confirming this, I couldn't be arsed asking Ortofon about the Arkiv cos to me they looked pretty much the same as the NCE on paper...
The Arkiv tip costs 24 Euro at my regular djshop , so I didn't really care about even trying out NCE's... +trying out anuthing else because there's hardly anything other than Traktor control vintl on my decks lately (gave up on digitalizing my vinyl a while ago..).

Last edited by voltcontrol : 07-18-2009 at 09:15 PM.
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  #48  
Old 07-18-2009, 10:45 PM
Reticuli Reticuli is offline
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On the Urei, the input capacitance is probably so low they're both rolling off. It's also likely a more pleasing one considering the compression & peak resonance is way past the audible range. If you got the input resistors up for 65kohms on the NCE and 100kohm on the 680, then they'd probably be flat. But you may be right about finding it really pleasing as is. The 440MLa should be electrically loaded similar to the Nightclubs, but most people find it sounds best very low capacitance and at or below 47kohms. Even at 100pF on the inputs alone (cables extra) I found the Ortofon OM series to REALLY need that 100kohm boost to the highs. You gotta also take into account the RIAA equalization of the Urei. We have no clue what kind of curve it's actually got. The NCE could be freakishly bright on it if the 680 el is neutral. I haven't got the Urei, so I'll shut up about it specifically as to which carts people are going to like more on it. But in general, the higher inductance of the older 680 design makes its treble response problematic without some electrical fussing or custom tuning by the manufacturer. In contrast, the Grado's ultra-low inductance MI and Denon HOMC designs will essentially be insensitive to loading in the audible band. That's why they pretty much sound great on every preamp people try them on, while 680, 500, OM, or Super OM (NC mk2) change their sound so drastically depending on what you connect them to.

The NC mk2 is a Super OM series with a very stiff cantilever...with racing stripes. Probably sounds pretty good with the TCC preamps and the Ranes. I doubt the high frequency tracking is any better than a NCE original, possibly worse. The bass tracking will definitely be worse even with the concorde body on a standard 1200 arm compared to the original with concorde. If that means it's super bad or still in the useable mass-compliance range, I don't know.
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  #49  
Old 07-19-2009, 10:16 PM
Lime Twig Lime Twig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reticuli
Not in my experience. The cheap ones are better than most DJ tips. Lower distortion. Lower tracking. And I get better cueing than ATP, 680EL, or Grado.

Can you recommend some potential Hi-fi tips that track well, Reticuli?

I'm still playing my Ortofon DJ-S and still don't like them. My set-up is a UREI 1620LE with 1200 mk2's and stock arms.

I bought the Grado 200's but haven't used them much since, because honestly, I didn't notice that much difference in sound! I know that probably just brands me as someone who doesn't know what they're talking about, but other than the fact that they were waay quieter, they didn't sound a lot better. Perhaps a bit sweeter in the mids, and less high end distortion but not a huge diff. On top of that, they made me play much more delicately, and honestly, I like to drink when I mix records!

My suspicion is that I need to learn how to align my carts properly but even after having read a dozen online guides, I only feel more confused.
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Old 07-19-2009, 10:33 PM
Reticuli Reticuli is offline
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I got threads on that topic, buddy.

I don't have a Urei, so I can't tell you why you didn't hear much difference. On my PPD01 (one of about 8 mixers I've got), it sounded night and day different to everything else. That was before I got my other boards, though. The DJ-S is very warm and rolled off, at least on the Pioneer digitals I've heard it through. The Grado is warm, but euphonic, deep, extended, and smooth. As you figured out, it also has much lower tracking distortion due to vastly lower tip mass compared to the DJ S/E's thickened cantilever even over the NCE/Arkiv.

Is this the dj200i "improved" version you've got? I didn't like how they tracked on my tables. Some people find they track well.
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