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  #1  
Old 07-07-2012, 05:15 AM
1620_nz 1620_nz is offline
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new member with some questions...

hi.

i'm 24 and from new zealand. i have been collecting electronic records since i was 13 and have now got 2 technics 1210s with ortofon om nightclub e carts.

i am in the market for a rotary mixer but just don't know which one. there is no interest in rotary mixers down here in nz, only the pioneer etc 'whizz-bang bells and whistles' mixers. every one down here tells me the xone 92 is the king of mixers and the only people who like rotarys are the 'long drawn out style of mixing' nyc dudes therefore i should steer clear of them. well i happen to like ny/nj house so im getting a rotary!

this will be my first experience with mixing records so the mixer will only be for home use. will be getting played through my hifi system which consists of a yaqin mc-100b tube amp and mission 780 bookshelf speakers (hopefully some tannoy 'arden' 15"s soon). currently using a goldring gr2 as a listrning deck.

have been looking through these forums and am amazed at the knowledge and focus on sound quality over bells and whistles. from what i have gathered reading these forums is that the bozak is king for sound but lacks a bit of functionality whilst the original urei 1620 is a good all rounder. i was hoping to buy 'something new' and have it last forever, eg a rane 2016 and xp unit but have been reading about the surface mount technology and brittle sound. would the 2016's brittle sound make much difference on a humble home hifi as opposed to a club sound system?

which to get, bozak, urei or rane? the v6 looks the goods but i think is out of my price range.

after looking through the photos thread i am going to make a dj console, hopefully with 3 decks but definatley with a rla power strip. (nz uses 240v, so the rla will be for decoration purposes only, a bit of nyc history in my lounge!)


well that was a long post, there will probably be plenty more with lots of newbie questions.

cheers!
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  #2  
Old 07-07-2012, 05:44 AM
bossa nolyx bossa nolyx is offline
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Quote:
reading these forums is that the bozak is king for sound
...

This happens when you trust internet forums.


The bozak sounds very very old and you MAY like it or not. But it has no good sound objectively. Same with 1620 original.

A lot happend in circuit engineering in the past 30 years . Good modern mixers sound MUCH more linear and precise! 30 years old mixer are not the fastest but du the right sounding on flat mastered old disco tracks. On a modern mixer these tracks sound flat and boring.

Pity that rodec does not huild any rotary mixer yet. The new series sound outstanding! If you play more actual tunes, go for a modern mixer.

Xone V6 is sold oud and hard to find. ARS Model 4100 is a unbelievable sounding unit, especially on phono inputs. Rane offers very good functionality with a very good sound. HiLevel and Formula Sound offer quality rotary mixers. And last but not least you may know the smart E&S DJR400 which is very interesting for mobile use.
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  #3  
Old 07-07-2012, 06:02 AM
1620_nz 1620_nz is offline
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thanks for that. i forgot to mention that i'm only interested in vinyl so i dont play mp3s or cds.
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  #4  
Old 07-07-2012, 06:09 AM
bossa nolyx bossa nolyx is offline
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I heard
- Urei (old and new)
- Rane
- Bozak
- HiLevel
- E&S
- ARS
- Vestax

And the ARS was the only mixer that really needs no external preamp to get a fantastic sound. Other mixer were also good or very good but their sound could be improved significantly with a good external preamp.
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  #5  
Old 07-07-2012, 06:19 AM
1620_nz 1620_nz is offline
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I forgot about the ARS, thats the jap one huh? pretty pricey isn't it?

would a yaqin ms-12b with tube upgrade to jj gold pin be considered a good external phono amp? thats what i'm currently using with the goldring gr2.
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  #6  
Old 07-07-2012, 07:42 AM
bossa nolyx bossa nolyx is offline
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Don't know this preamp. I don't really like tube preamps in a professional setup. I can't see a real objective benefit and tubes wear out unnecessarily :|

But that's just my oppinion...


I like the Lehmann Black Cube Twin. Solid built, two stereo preamps in one device, impeccable sound.
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  #7  
Old 07-07-2012, 06:01 PM
Fred Bissnette Fred Bissnette is offline
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if you end up with a bozak(old one) first thing you'll need to do is recap

but after that it will sound like a new 30 year old mixer get yourself some big vintage jbls and have a great time!!!!
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  #8  
Old 07-07-2012, 07:49 PM
Zen5656 Zen5656 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossa nolyx
I like the Lehmann Black Cube Twin. Solid built, two stereo preamps in one device, impeccable sound.

I now have one but with the new circuit boards. Very important to mention that! Only buy the "after 2006" builds. I will send you a message soon
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  #9  
Old 07-07-2012, 08:05 PM
djchewns djchewns is offline
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Whats your price range?
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  #10  
Old 07-08-2012, 04:13 AM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossa nolyx
...

This happens when you trust internet forums.


And what is different about this forum or the opinions expressed by yourself?
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  #11  
Old 07-08-2012, 09:34 AM
Zen5656 Zen5656 is offline
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He seems to have real life experience. The majority of people reads & talks a lot but never buys the gear imho.
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  #12  
Old 07-08-2012, 11:57 AM
FunkSoulLover FunkSoulLover is offline
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There is a xone 92 rotary, would that be of any interest to you?
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  #13  
Old 07-08-2012, 12:12 PM
Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossa nolyx
Don't know this preamp. I don't really like tube preamps in a professional setup. I can't see a real objective benefit and tubes wear out unnecessarily :|

But that's just my oppinion...



Preamplifier valves have a longer lifespan than semiconductors. I have Valves such as ECC 81, 82 in addition to ECC 83 that are over 60 years old with no signs of sound degradation.

Best Regards,
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  #14  
Old 07-08-2012, 05:11 PM
bossa nolyx bossa nolyx is offline
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OK,

I had many worse experiences with tubes in different professional environments (studio) so I decided at some point not to deal with tubes any longer

Happy to hear that you made good experiences. Maybe I worked with wrong products...
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  #15  
Old 07-08-2012, 10:40 PM
Special.K Special.K is offline
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I would buy an old Bozak, recap it and if you don't like it put it back on eBay, you might even make a profit!
I love my Bozak's for home use, they sound just the way i like them too but i don't take them out (i do hire them occasionally) and i have a Rane MP/XP combo for gigs and i can't say i have ever had a issue with that either, the Rane actually sounds better with my gig speakers and the Bozak blows the Rane away in my house on my old KEF's..

In the end you might not like what ever you buy at first as we all hear things differently so i would just try something and start the journey from there!
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  #16  
Old 07-08-2012, 11:05 PM
Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossa nolyx
OK,

I had many worse experiences with tubes in different professional environments (studio) so I decided at some point not to deal with tubes any longer

Happy to hear that you made good experiences. Maybe I worked with wrong products...




It really depends on what stage the valves are used for. Valves at the output driver stage will show signs of wear in their performance as the years go by. A lot of old studio equipment that sell for astronomical prices that use solely valves, are designed with output driver valves. So the valves must be replaced from time to time.

Valves incorporated in devices such as DJ mixers are used only in preamp stage with semiconductors at the output drive stage. So all the torture is subjected to the semiconductors not the valves.

One of the things many seem to forget is sound is subjective. Some will fancy how a Rane mixer sounds and others will prefer the sound of a Bozak mixer. It really boils down to personal taste not a majority vote.

Best Regards,
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  #17  
Old 07-09-2012, 02:53 AM
1620_nz 1620_nz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkSoulLover
There is a xone 92 rotary, would that be of any interest to you?


hi. i'm really after a 19" mixer as i really want to make a dj console with that classic look.
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  #18  
Old 07-09-2012, 02:58 AM
1620_nz 1620_nz is offline
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thanks for all the input!

at this stage i would really like to get the ars 4100 due to the awesome sound quality everyone speaks of, but the price puts me off a bit. then again, i would rather pay a bit more now rather than moan down the track.

the rane 2016 is also of interest. i don't know a hell of a lot about professional sound gear, does the rane xp 2016 act as an isolator or not really? the 2016 doesn't have much love on there boards?

i would be keen to get an isolator at some stage, but i would like to learn to mix the 'propper' way with no eq's in the event thay i'm thrown into a situation with no eqs (not very likely as here in nz every club uses a pioneer)
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  #19  
Old 07-09-2012, 05:11 AM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Special.K
I would buy an old Bozak, recap it and if you don't like it put it back on eBay, you might even make a profit!
I love my Bozak's for home use, they sound just the way i like them too but i don't take them out (i do hire them occasionally) and i have a Rane MP/XP combo for gigs and i can't say i have ever had a issue with that either, the Rane actually sounds better with my gig speakers and the Bozak blows the Rane away in my house on my old KEF's..

In the end you might not like what ever you buy at first as we all hear things differently so i would just try something and start the journey from there!

What KEF's you using? I got 104aB's on my CMA 10-2DL But then I only live about 30 mins away from where KEF are lol I want to get some 103/2's to replace some cheap Tannoy's for my living room
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  #20  
Old 07-09-2012, 08:12 AM
bossa nolyx bossa nolyx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot Thompson
It really depends on what stage the valves are used for. Valves at the output driver stage will show signs of wear in their performance as the years go by. A lot of old studio equipment that sell for astronomical prices that use solely valves, are designed with output driver valves. So the valves must be replaced from time to time.

Valves incorporated in devices such as DJ mixers are used only in preamp stage with semiconductors at the output drive stage. So all the torture is subjected to the semiconductors not the valves.
Often not the tubes were worn, but the whole complex circuit for the tubes was making problems. It was just the reason why my interest in tubes subsided. Maybe there are good devices and circuits for tubes. You may have much better experiences.

But in the end I can't see a real benefit for DJ equipment. Sound... hm... you can get great sound without tubes. I won't say this or that is better. Both worlds can make a wonderful sound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot Thompson

One of the things many seem to forget is sound is subjective. Some will fancy how a Rane mixer sounds and others will prefer the sound of a Bozak mixer. It really boils down to personal taste not a majority vote.

Best Regards,
Of course, the sound impression is subjective! But the sound impression depends very much on speakers and room. An actual rane mp2016 (or other actual good devices) is much more precise, not only at high frequencies than any old bozak. I have the new IsoX and it sounds like crap! Even at +6dB gain an any band on professional studio level it has heavy(!) distortion (could measure again, I think about 10% or more!). Don't want to know how their actual mixer sounds. Also the old bozak is much slower and has much more distortion at low frequencies than good actual DJ mixers. It would indeed be strange if in the past 30 years of electronic engineerinh nothing would have done.

Of course, you CAN subjectively like the sound. You can like the coloration of an old bozak or urei, especially on older recordings! It's an issue of what you want to have. Laurin had once put it well. "For me, the mixer is the central instrument of a DJ setup and as such, it should have it's own sounding". OK.

There are enough actual mixers with a slightly deep sounding. But they are also more precise. And for good reasons metrologically correct equipment always sounds a bit more flat. Objectively this sound is correct and better than the sound of 30 years old slow and distorting devices. But subjectively you may like these...


If anybody asks me for a good sounding mixer, I tell him precise and flat sounding actual devices. If he likes to have a punchier sound, then he should get the right speakers for that cut use a clear and precise source. Because I can not know what coloration he likes best and how his speakers and room sound!


Last edited by bossa nolyx : 07-09-2012 at 08:15 AM.
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  #21  
Old 07-09-2012, 11:28 AM
Ryan0751 Ryan0751 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1620_nz
the rane 2016 is also of interest. i don't know a hell of a lot about professional sound gear, does the rane xp 2016 act as an isolator or not really? the 2016 doesn't have much love on there boards?

The 2016 is a great mixer, and it touted pretty well on these boards. I'm guessing that since it's still in production and isn't a vintage or hobbyist piece, it doesn't get quite the same spotlight as the Bozak and Urei.

I love mine. It's still my favorite mixer. I had a Xone 92 rotary previously, that too is an excellent piece of gear.

I do also have a Pioneer DJM-900 Nexus. It's "ok"
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  #22  
Old 07-09-2012, 11:41 AM
Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossa nolyx
Often not the tubes were worn, but the whole complex circuit for the tubes was making problems. It was just the reason why my interest in tubes subsided. Maybe there are good devices and circuits for tubes. You may have much better experiences.

Technology has improved a lot in terms of electrolytic, resistors, rectifiers and so forth. Valve equipment designed today will offer lower signal to noise floor ratio than those of the yesteryear due to more stellar components. The majority of the valve equipment designed today also sends less voltage to the valves compared to 50 years ago.

I might add professional valve equipment designed today use-balanced signals, which was very hard to find when valve equipment was the standard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bossa nolyx
But in the end I can't see a real benefit for DJ equipment. Sound... hm... you can get great sound without tubes. I won't say this or that is better. Both worlds can make a wonderful sound.

It really depends on what the person is aiming for. Valves and semiconductor’s sound differ like records differ to the sound of a CD.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bossa nolyx
Of course, the sound impression is subjective! But the sound impression depends very much on speakers and room.

And if the person listening to product in question is using different speakers in a room that differs from the person praising (or disapproving) the product, both parties are not hearing the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossa nolyx
An actual rane mp2016 (or other actual good devices) is much more precise, not only at high frequencies than any old bozak. I have the new IsoX and it sounds like crap! Even at +6dB gain an any band on professional studio level it has heavy(!) distortion (could measure again, I think about 10% or more!). Don't want to know how their actual mixer sounds. Also the old bozak is much slower and has much more distortion at low frequencies than good actual DJ mixers. It would indeed be strange if in the past 30 years of electronic engineerinh nothing would have done.

I’ll use the Rane as an example as to what I mentioned in my previous reply to your quote. By design, Rane products offer a HPF @ 15Hz. This may be fine and, possibly even go unnoticed due to low frequency limitation of the sound system.

However, if the sound system is designed go very low, you will notice a reduction in the sub-low frequencies.

In the case of Bozak, the HPF is much lower without a very steep slope. Since the more you reduce the low frequencies the greater the intelligence, it can leave a perception that the Rane is more precise for loudspeakers that have difficulty producing sub-low frequencies. However, if the system is designed to play sub-low frequencies, the Rane will not sound as precise compared to the Bozak in the low frequency response.

In that case of “Also the old bozak is much slower and has much more distortion at low frequencies than good actual DJ mixers” the lower the frequency the slower the speed. One needs to think cycles per second that were common before Hertz were used to represent low frequencies. 20 cycles per second is slower than 40 cycles per second.

So it explains why the Bozak is as you put "slower" which stems from a lower setting on the HPF compared to RANE.

I can assure if the Bozak mixer is not driven beyond it’s limits or the amplifier, the distortion you are hearing is from the loudspeakers. Only a few loudspeaker manufactures are brazen enough to publish the distortion figures of their products.

The difference between vintage analogue equipment and modern day analogue equipment is steeper filtering in terms of low frequency roll-off in addition to higher starting points. Whether that is a good or bad thing depends on what the person is aiming for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossa nolyx
Of course, you CAN subjectively like the sound. You can like the coloration of an old bozak or urei, especially on older recordings! It's an issue of what you want to have. Laurin had once put it well. "For me, the mixer is the central instrument of a DJ setup and as such, it should have it's own sounding". OK.

Before digital, that would have been the instrument. Whether it is a musical instrument (Brass, String, Woodwind) or a record stylus, everything revolved around the instrument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossa nolyx
There are enough actual mixers with a slightly deep sounding. But they are also more precise. And for good reasons metrologically correct equipment always sounds a bit more flat. Objectively this sound is correct and better than the sound of 30 years old slow and distorting devices. But subjectively you may like these...

Having a flat frequency would reflect more to wards your loudspeakers limitation in terms of how high or how low they can produce the desired frequency. You would be surprised how many praise audio equipment with a limited frequency bandwidth since they make their loudspeaker sound better.

It really boils down to the magnitude of the sound system, the concept of the design in addition to where the designer has configured the frequency limitations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossa nolyx
If anybody asks me for a good sounding mixer, I tell him precise and flat sounding actual devices. If he likes to have a punchier sound, then he should get the right speakers for that cut use a clear and precise source. Because I can not know what coloration he likes best and how his speakers and room sound!

But even your suggestion is based on the limitation of your loudspeakers and the size of your room. As I mentioned previously, if the person listening to the product in question is using different speakers in a room that differs from the person praising (or disapproving) the product, both parties are not hearing the same thing.

The only way to judge the sound of audio equipment fairly with two people is to have both parties in the same room listening to the audio equipment in question on a pair of loudspeakers. Then, the tonal characteristics of how each person deciphers sound will come into play.

Best Regards,
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Last edited by Elliot Thompson : 07-09-2012 at 11:54 AM.
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  #23  
Old 07-09-2012, 01:04 PM
John-Martin John-Martin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1620_nz
thanks for all the input!

the rane 2016 is also of interest. i don't know a hell of a lot about professional sound gear, does the rane xp 2016 act as an isolator or not really? the 2016 doesn't have much love on there boards?

i would be keen to get an isolator at some stage, but i would like to learn to mix the 'propper' way with no eq's in the event thay i'm thrown into a situation with no eqs (not very likely as here in nz every club uses a pioneer)


The XP adds per channel ISOs, crossfader and a full meter. There is also master ISO on the far right hand side of the mixer. It doesn't have the spaciousness of an external ISO but it does the job.

The 2016 doesn't get a lot of attention here because it's an install mixer. It doesn't have the classic sound and quirks that people like in their own personal booths, it's simply a well built, good sounding mixer designed to take the abuse of being used for hours on end in professional environments day in and day out.
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  #24  
Old 07-09-2012, 04:03 PM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossa nolyx
...

The bozak sounds very very old and you MAY like it or not. But it has no good sound objectively.

Don't forget there are at least 3 different types of Bozak not including the D that all sound very different and uses 3 different types of circuitry

http://www.wavemusic.com/community/s...91&postcount=4
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  #25  
Old 07-09-2012, 08:16 PM
Mehdi Mehdi is offline
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Hi,
Im making this mixer, cloned on the bozak circuits, slightly modified and 10DB quieter, Im in Australia so shipping is easy. I can build a rack version to order, I have a demo one on ebay now. It sounds massive!
http://s838.photobucket.com/albums/zz302/melaquil/
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/221065754...#ht_594wt_1413

I also warrant my work, I've been working with audio electronics for over 20 years.

Thanks,

Mehdi.

http://soundcloud.com/medhi
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