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  #51  
Old 01-20-2010, 10:27 PM
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quez quez is offline
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Don't get me twisted, I am moving forward with the digital era. Very much into Serato and it brings joy in technology. It doesn't sound the same. I'll take the same vinyl and play it through Serato as a WAV then play it live on my 1200 with a 680 cart...worlds apart! Yes it's fun and that's what it will remain. Just fun.
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  #52  
Old 01-20-2010, 11:16 PM
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RETRODISKO RETRODISKO is offline
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I agree ,

we need to go on with technology or we ended up like dinosaurs, LOL

When i went to El Dorado and Scotty show me his mac running serato i just realized that yes,, time for change, the new stuf sunds great the new systems,

technology makes it very fun!! and practical, serato traktor, virtual dj pcdj any software , imagine that technology on the 80's or 90's WOW;!!

Of course Vinyl, old amps, vintage stuff is always in my heart and everybody here agree and when its hear it proper, blow your mind, but also we need to be openminded to all the new stuff coming in the future, or we ended up talking like our grampas, "in my times.-... """"

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  #53  
Old 01-21-2010, 01:12 AM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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OK, I won't argue that files do not sound exactly the same as vinyl, because they don't. BUT, even IF all our file based music were available on vinyl, I found out, TODAYS music doesn't sound the same as YESTERDAYS music, regardless of the playback format used.

However, I also know that I am able to achieve GREAT sound utilizing todays playback formats. And this is where the art of voicing and setup come into play. I find todays digital music many times has TOO MUCH top end, as opposed to vinyls softer, airier top end sound. I found inducing a slight extreme top end roll off in my EQ curve at 16K solved that problem, and not only reduced the sometimes harsher hi frequency sound, but , also made the music sound opened up, with more extension and sparkle.

Of course, there is even more to it than just that, but, vinyl had it's flaws and compromises too. That our ears came to LIKE those flaws, and become accustomed to hearing the compromises as BEING THAT sound can also be difficult to overcome.

One thing thing holds true today as it did in 1989, or 1979! The same music, using same playback format does NOT sound the same on EVERY system, in every room. So, when I finally became able to let go of what the sound of the vinyl era was, and concentrate on what TODAY is, I was able to get the best out of what we really can get from todays digital based playback mediums.

Truthfully, in some ways TODAY does not sound like the past, BUT, in other ways TODAY exceeds what YESTERDAY sounded like.

Then, I began enjoying what TODAY is!

IT CAN BE A JAW DROPPING EXPERIENCE!

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  #54  
Old 01-21-2010, 11:26 AM
T. Tauri T. Tauri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clubman5
You might be right, yet, even on other audio forums they praise FLAC as being very good.

Still, many times, I "think" I hear differences with various hardware that does the same things. And file based audio is supposed to be immune from this, right?

I guess there's a certain trust we put in these things that can be misplaced... I remember doing a test with a sampler plugin in my sequencer several years ago, where the identical file triggered as a sample and played back as an audio track were going out of sync the longer they played... If the sampler was working correctly, that shouldn't have happened. (And strange that it should happen, since this was one of the simplest tasks the sampler could be asked to perform.)

But if a FLAC is sounding different from its source file, it's because something is wrong.

Peece,
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  #55  
Old 01-25-2010, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by clubman5
Not to go off topic, but, I have a question for some that are more computer literate than I. What do you guys think of the new generation of SSD hard drives? No moving parts has to be good for something, no?

SSD's have incredible response time. I would have to buy many fast drives and set them up in a RAID10 set in order to achieve the speed of a single SSD.

Having said that, they are still quite expensive relative to your old regular drive. I think the sweet spot for SSDs right now is the 80GB MLC drive from Samsung or Intel. You could prolly score one on NewEgg for ~200-300. Larger SSD drives double, triple and quintuple in cost very quickly.

If you are buying an SSD drive, keep in mind a few things:
1. Buy an SSD drive and invest in an OS that support the TRIM feature. SSD drives are made of cells that wear out faster than the avg magnetic media hard drive. TRIM is functionality that will extend the life of your SSD hard drive.
2. There are SLC (single level cell) SSD drives and MLC (multi level cell) drives. SLC are far more expensive and reliable. MLC are cheaper and less reliable. Most of the SSD drives you see in the marketplace are MLC.

I purchased an 80GB Intel X-25M (MLC) drive for my IBM Thinkpad and it is fantastic. My computer is essentially all solid-state at this point and I can throw it up in the air and shake it and nothing happens...the thing keeps running!

Finally, keep in mind computers are like bananas - resources to be exploited that will rot quickly in the sun. Do not "invest" in them. Buy what you need, what you can afford for today and tomorrow (but not next year). There will be cheaper, fresher bananas on the horizon!

- sasha
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  #56  
Old 01-25-2010, 06:09 AM
acidburn acidburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richi
Scott,

FLAC is a standard, though it's not a standard when buying online. Mac does support FLAC just not native. FK is a heavy user of FLAC, you will find all his files for Tracktor use are in FLAC.

FLAC is the way to go for storing large bit rate audio files.

I have spent the last 10yrs "refining" (actually stumbling through and finally getting it right) ripping my vinyl to digital. My setup is:

Technics 1200 (Shure m97 cart)-->Creek Audio OBH15 pre-->RME Fireface 400---> Soundforge 24bit/44.1 FLAC--->dither down to 16bit/44.1 FLAC

Once I rip the vinyl, I use the Foobar Discogs plugin to tag my rips (for the first few years I typed this info in and that was very very painful). The plugin also auto-downloads album art, so it is a critical tool for me.

FLAC files use lossless compression. You can take a wav file, convert it to FLAC, convert back to WAV and use digital tools to see the WAV file is exactly the same as the original.

Besides the compression and tagging functionality, most of the devices I use to play music support FLAC files natively (squeezeboxes). I LOVE FLAC MAN.

I wish FLAC files were better supported on the Mac. It is possible to play them in Songbird, but itunes and all the apple hardware does not support FLAC files. There are programs that will convert the files for you, but it's a pain in da butt.

my two cents.
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  #57  
Old 01-25-2010, 06:20 AM
acidburn acidburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clubman5
FLAC sounds good. Better than MP3, and even WAV was only a slight bit better than MP3. But FLAC files sounded more dynamic.

Apple lossless is what I use most of the time, and I seem to get good results with well put together MP3 tracks.


Apple lossless and FLAC should theoretically sound the same - they are both lossless codecs (they throw no musical data away when being created). Whatever audio was encoded to those formats should sound exactly the same as the source material.

If someone is using a Mac, I think ALC is prolly the way to go since there is excellent support for ALC on that platform and it's related hardware (ipods, iphones).

If someone is on a PC (running Windows or Linux) and not tied to Apple portables, FLAC is a terrific choice.
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  #58  
Old 01-25-2010, 06:23 AM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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And since Serato uses iTunes, FLAC is still not compatible in my setup, something I wish they would change. The rest of the audio forums are relly starting to swear by FLAC, too.

Thanks for the info about SSD. My thinking is that since SSD drives have no moving parts, it must generate only a fraction of the heat of a fast spinning disc drive. Less heat = longer play times while remaining undistorted. When I first began using Serato, I noticed the sound seemed to get slightly fuzzy after a few hours. I spoke to Scratchlive about this, at the time, and I was dumbfounded by the answer I got! They told me Serato was designed for primarily 2 hours of use, as that is the average set time of the GUEST DJ! He asked me how long my laptop was in use for during a single day, I told him, weekends can be up to 14 hours, one day. It was never designed for this amount of time. Imagine, but, that's the way it is. Fan assisted cooling tray helps out, considerably. But, can be more pain of setup in tight spots.

I was also warned by a few people NOT to go with the 7200 RPM HD cards, heat being an issue, once again. My main HD card is 500GB, 5400 RPM.

I'm thinking SSD generates little, if any, heat, and THIS is my primary reason for wanting it!

Acidburn, thanks for chiming in, and welcome back!

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  #59  
Old 01-25-2010, 06:27 AM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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At this time, I get GOOD results with both Apple Lossles, and AIFF.
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  #60  
Old 01-25-2010, 06:33 AM
acidburn acidburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clubman5

I'm thinking SSD generates little, if any, heat, and THIS is my primary reason for wanting it!

Acidburn, thanks for chiming in, and welcome back!


Happy to be able to join in on the fun. Yes, SSD generates very little heat compared to regular hard drives. My IBM laptop fan used to spin up and down all the time in response to heat load. After putting in the SSD, the fan only spins up when I am hammering the CPU (not too often).

Regarding SSDs, be very very careful to go with either Intel or Samsung drives. The special sauce with SSDs are their controllers. They have the programmatic intelligence to do TRIM and are a differentiating component between companies. There have been reliability issues in the past with SSDs and the issues have come down to controllers. Stick with Intel (X-25 series are great) or Samsung SSDs.
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  #61  
Old 01-25-2010, 06:42 AM
acidburn acidburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clubman5
I find todays digital music many times has TOO MUCH top end, as opposed to vinyls softer, airier top end sound. I found inducing a slight extreme top end roll off in my EQ curve at 16K solved that problem, and not only reduced the sometimes harsher hi frequency sound, but , also made the music sound opened up, with more extension and sparkle.

This is very interesting and mirrors an experience I just had. I purchased a used McIntosh MC252 amp and it is known for having a warm and powerful sound. My vinyl sounds way too soft running through it, but digital audio (not my FLAC files encoded from vinyl, but digital files I download from say Juno) sound lovely through it. I think the highs of digital files are often very sharp and the McIntosh smooths them out perfectly.

I have come to appreciate that all the equipment in your chain (your mixer, amp, speakers) and your source formats (vinyl, FLAC file encoded from vinyl, digital files) must "match" in order to get something that sounds good. Different source formats make a huge difference.

Kind of a pain in da butt if you ask me.
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  #62  
Old 01-25-2010, 06:45 AM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acidburn
Happy to be able to join in on the fun. Yes, SSD generates very little heat compared to regular hard drives. My IBM laptop fan used to spin up and down all the time in response to heat load. After putting in the SSD, the fan only spins up when I am hammering the CPU (not too often).

Regarding SSDs, be very very careful to go with either Intel or Samsung drives. The special sauce with SSDs are their controllers. They have the programmatic intelligence to do TRIM and are a differentiating component between companies. There have been reliability issues in the past with SSDs and the issues have come down to controllers. Stick with Intel (X-25 series are great) or Samsung SSDs.
I agree, as my Macbook uses Intel, so this is logical! Besides, Intel is GOOD!
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  #63  
Old 01-25-2010, 07:02 AM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acidburn
This is very interesting and mirrors an experience I just had. I purchased a used McIntosh MC252 amp and it is known for having a warm and powerful sound. My vinyl sounds way too soft running through it, but digital audio (not my FLAC files encoded from vinyl, but digital files I download from say Juno) sound lovely through it. I think the highs of digital files are often very sharp and the McIntosh smooths them out perfectly.

I have come to appreciate that all the equipment in your chain (your mixer, amp, speakers) and your source formats (vinyl, FLAC file encoded from vinyl, digital files) must "match" in order to get something that sounds good. Different source formats make a huge difference.

Kind of a pain in da butt if you ask me.
100% agreed!

And, I too, have my own combination of items that achieves the overall sonic picture I like best when spinning file based music. With the Rane 2016 mixer, files bass sounds tight, and punchy, highs are clean. Conversely, same setup spinning vinyl, bass sounds anemic, highs too sterile sounding, to me. I also use a combination of vintage and NEW Crowns, and it took me a minute to finally get what I wanted. What I find, is when my system is optimized for a particular format, primarily this is the format that will sound proper to me over my system, and others may not sound exactly perfect. Years ago, voicing for vinyl didn't work well with CD, either, to my ears.

However, I enjoy the DVS system for playback of program, so I went for it, and did what I found out I could to get the BEST from downloads and Serato. For me, this is where the MAJOR availability of catalog exists, is what the dance music industry has adopted, and where there is so much R & D going on, it gets better and better, all the time. So, I adopted it, too. And i haven't looked back since.

I accept that things are a constant state of evolution as well. Simply put, vinyl in 1975 did NOT sound like vinyl did in 1985, so, the vinyl era was also a constant evolutionary process, with the pinnacle of analog audio occurring in the 80,s I think.

OTOH, that digital audio, and DVS playback is where it is at now, this also makes it fun, and challenging. They are coming out with newer and improved generations of software and hardware. Experimentation lends itself, and makes me WANT to use my head to get as much out of it as i can.

And not only that, good files do sound GOOOD! The amounts of music available is staggering, and also, as the technology is maturing, so is the production of the music. IMHO, the plethora of types of dance music being put out is GREAT! Good vocals, good hard stuff, good electronic, whatever.

Music has become exciting, again!
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