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  #1  
Old 01-03-2003, 04:18 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Acoustilog

yeah, Al did do alot of work on the layout and acoustics for the Garage! He also did the acoustics and layout for Studio 54! The man is a GENIUS! Always was!

He designed The RLA X-3000 for Richard Long! Another one of Al,s treats!
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  #2  
Old 01-03-2003, 04:32 PM
paulr79 paulr79 is offline
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Acoustilog

Scott, would it be right to say he did the Zanzibar too, and the X-3000 was it the 1U or the 2U Al designed?
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  #3  
Old 01-03-2003, 04:47 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Al was a BIG part of what made the RLA sound so special!

I dont know if Al actually laid out the Zanz system! But I think its safe to say that all Richards work have GENIUS in them based on things co-developed between Al and Richard!

The crossovers were originally 2 rackspace jobs. These were called X-2000,s and were 4 way xovers! I have 2 of them. Then they came out with the 1 rackspace version which could be configured as a 4 way xover or the x-3000 with sub and tweeter outs and 1 full range out! Greatest sounding xovers I have ever come across!

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  #4  
Old 01-03-2003, 05:00 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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x-1000

Actually al based the x-2000 off of the x-1000 that richard designed so this is where the dj x-over all came from. Now al did do most of the behind the scenes electronics designs and acoustics to each of richards rooms as well as laid them out and richard was the genious behind the cabnets so between richard and al this is why rla was so amazing because these two were the best minds in the buisness.I as well own 2 x2000s & many x3,000-4,000-5000x-overs as well as ALS- Acoustilog ie-102 that he speaks about in his article.
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  #5  
Old 01-04-2003, 09:53 AM
teddyedwards teddyedwards is offline
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thanks paul

for the info about acoustilog...they have some other very interesting & informative articles on their site as well.

Acoustic treatment of any given listening space (esp. clubs) is nearly always overlooked in my opinion. that's just from my experiences here in the UK. anyone got any good sources of info for practical acoustics?? some Rt60 analysis software would be good - is this easily/cheaply available?

i have a question that relates to the RLA x-over - if the DJ is/was using monitors, were these set up to reflect the tweeter level on the RLA x-over (i.e. full range monitors with additional tweeter controlled from the RLA unit).
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  #6  
Old 01-04-2003, 02:09 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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booth monitors

The RLA xover ONLY controlled the house system! The booth output on the urei and also some Bozaks have this as well, was used to drive the amp for full range booth speakers!

Some clubs opted to do a more elaborate booth setup with subs, full range, and tweeters! This requires a second RLA to control the booth system!

If you want to do a really serious booth monitor system it can be done, and will sound great, it just requires more money!
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  #7  
Old 01-04-2003, 02:18 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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yes, Tom, I will agree

Even here in the states many clubs overlook acoustic treatment! It amazes me when someone opens a BIG space that was a garage or had never been a club, and they install sound and go crazy wondering why their room sounds like listening to music being echoed through a garbage can.

The room has a very big effect on how your system will sound! But people dont realize this until after they make critical mistakes. Seasoned club owners usually understand things that have to be done, more so than people who are new to nightclub and audio buisinesses!

One thing Ive seen WAY to much of in the last 5-8 years is using the wrong types of speaker systems for the application as well as overpowering rooms!

I would have to say these are the MAIN reasons that so many, if not in fact most clubs, do not achieve the desired balance of sound!
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  #8  
Old 01-04-2003, 04:31 PM
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Acoustics

Been looking at acoustilog site.

Some great info there. Love the motorised console!

Tom

I know a man localy who has a Studio Business. He has a fully soundproofed studio.

Double doors, foam floor six inches thick, false ceiling, bass traps etc.

He also does soundproofing work for people.

He is fairly qualified on this and is on to his third degree course!

I can give you contacts if you have a specific project or questions on these matters.
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  #9  
Old 01-05-2003, 06:14 PM
teddyedwards teddyedwards is offline
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uk acoustics

thanks Dave - that would be very useful. Where abouts is "local" for you?

you can reach me at teddy_edwards@btopenworld.com

i found the 'myth of equalisation' article on the acoustilog site really helpful. Put things in a new light for me - need more reading on this subject.?!

scott, did you ever get hold of a Marchland crossover unit - if so what are they like & how do you rate them?
still thinking over the fancy booth monitor idea - might come back to you in a bit.
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  #10  
Old 01-06-2003, 12:04 AM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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yeah i got the Marchand

They are good. Sound nice. I still like the Bryston xovers better but they are more than double the price!

The beauty of the marchand is you can have em configured anyway you want em!

The XM-44 comes 3 way, or 4way stereo and you can select whatever xover points you desire ( preset on the internal cards ) and 6db through 48db slopes! And each band has an output level control.

Its good stuff and priced right!
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  #11  
Old 01-06-2003, 12:46 PM
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Crossovers

I might be going down the BSS FDS 360 route. Will need a pair. I know Scott has knowledge of these.

The limiter functions are a necessity unfortunately!

Although Bryston are Good I would need a pair at least and that is over budget.

VFX 2 would be kept for bullets.
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  #12  
Old 01-06-2003, 01:45 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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The BSS-FDS-360

Good unit! And if your really going to buy it, you can order them with 18db butterworth filters instead of the standard 24L-R. Then youll have something worth talking about. The limiters in these units work and give you the neccessary protection.

This will work well!
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  #13  
Old 01-06-2003, 02:13 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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since your going to keep the VFX on the bullets

You do want to order your BSS-360,s with third order butterworth filters. This way everything will gel together.
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  #14  
Old 01-06-2003, 03:47 PM
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Crossover

Not sure about 18db all the way through at present.

Certainly on tweeters yes.

Will need to try the sound of these 18db filters on the compression horn to midrange cone transition, as well as the bass end to midrange transistion.

The bass may come of worse with a less defined slope with my current set up. Have enough bits of kit here to have a bit of R and D research.

Also not sure if you can change 24db to 18db or if you are stuck with the slope on the card.

Have downloaded manual but not everything is on it. I also would like built in CD horn eq and not sure if these cards are still avaliable.

Would like a listen to Klark Tecnik DN 800 also.

Did the phase settings really help to sound more coherent around crossover?

Look foward to playing with these.
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  #15  
Old 01-06-2003, 04:54 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Um, midrange is MUCH better 18db!

You will hear the same difference in the mids as youve already experienced with your tweeters!

Changing the BSS to 18db is a resistor on the cards! A technician can do it for you! BSS can supply the information.

Bass is better using third order filters! Again, same as your tweeters! Try your VFX on your subs!

The phase settings can help, but you have to set them exact. There is a technique for doing this and I will find it out for you!
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  #16  
Old 01-06-2003, 07:44 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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yeah but scotty

With todays power amps and the power structures that these guys are using, if these guys are use 18db butterworth slopes with high power output per chanel they will most likely run into trouble and might have problems with horn drivers letting go. I recomend 24 l/r for him all depending on the amps if there high power amplification & what kind of amps are you using with power ratio per driver?
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  #17  
Old 01-06-2003, 08:07 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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If your compression driver can handle 100watts

and your not using 250 watts per driver and you are at the correct crossover point you should have no problem!

The bullets are more delicate than most compression drivers designed for midrange!
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  #18  
Old 01-07-2003, 12:50 PM
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Crossover

I don't have problems as yet with horn driver overpowering.

112 db sensitivity JBL 2446j with 2380 horn, off the top of my head.

These only need tickling with amp, QSC EX 1250. (cheeky little amp not to your taste Shorty!)

Yeah I know you prefer exponential plate horns etc!

I think a lot of people manage to make these 2 inch drivers tear heads of. They just need right EQ curve and half a brain to set up. They certainly embarrass a lot of 'Hi Fi' gear.

I doubt if they need more than a couple of volts to keep up with the bottom end.

The abuse factor is always hard to qualify.
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  #19  
Old 01-07-2003, 01:07 PM
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Horns

I have to worry about peoples hearing if a blowing a 2 inch driver is a common occurance in a club.

Never want to hear this sound thanks.
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  #20  
Old 01-07-2003, 01:13 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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Ex 1250

I agree with you on alot of engineers not understanding how to do the proper eq curves on systems and most of the systems do rip your ears apart and your ears ring for days after you went out and most systems are not HiFi at all. But I have worked with this amp on one of my clients system but it is being replaced with a Bryston 3B but the qsc ex 1250 is on JBL baby lens horns with jbl 1 inch horn drivers right now and it does sound pretty good, but I do prefer the sound of the BGW 350A or Bryston 3B for horns but the qsc amp does work well on horns and you can do 18DB butterworth slopes if you choose too it should sound good thats how i am using it, the whole system is all 18DB Butterworth slopes www.systemsbyshorty.com
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  #21  
Old 01-07-2003, 01:22 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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2 in horns

I have never seen a system blow horns if it is being operated properly. Now if the dj is abusing eqs / levels and filters effects units you can loose a driver maybe, but a 2 inch horn driver is a very hard driver to blow if the system is set up properly and its not way over powered like most systems today. www.systemsbyshorty.com
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  #22  
Old 01-07-2003, 03:16 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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JBL 2446

This driver and the amp your using will work fine with 18db filters!

youll be as surprised at the sound as you were with your bullets!

It works.
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  #23  
Old 01-07-2003, 03:28 PM
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2446

You edited your post Shorty.

Yes the horn eq and gain level, you must still have good enough hearing not to put up with screaming horns.

You use 2441 in your home system?

2446 are simillar design but what do you like about the older design of horn?

What about the newer 1.5 inch designs are these much better, I know on paper they are.

I saw a few very vintage looking drivers lurking around the other day including the classic right angle JBL horn on a alinco driver which still cracks me up.

In the acoustilog article on the garage they are using a very low crossover point on the plate horns. I think that showed a confidence in the DJ.

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  #24  
Old 01-07-2003, 03:56 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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i fixed my spelling errors

& after rereading your post i wanted to add something diif but you posted while i was editing sorry.
I like the alnico magnet and aluminum diaphram combo it has a character that i like with my lens horns that apeals to me and i have mine x-over at 750hz and up but you should have no problems setting it up at 18 db per octive where are you x-ing them over at?
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  #25  
Old 01-07-2003, 05:13 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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1.5 in are good but

I prefer the sound of a 2inch in the lower midrange over a 1-inch or a 1.5-in, and i design systems with tweeters that stop the horns in the fullrange section, so the tweeter takes over & goes all up to 20K plus.
I don`t like running horns up all the way because i dont like the way a 2inch horn sounds going all the way up even if they recomend that the horn will go up to 20K without any problems.
Back then they did run the horns down lower than today because the horns were powered by a Crown D150 or BGW 250A or similar amps in that power range so you could roll them off lower with 2 or 3 way fullrange systems, & you had the same djs playing that venue weekly & the DJs really new there sound system back then and understood them in and out (like Larry who lived in the garage behind the stage or djs like Tee Scott or Larry Paterson and Tony Humphries these guys new sound) and they respected the system unlike todays djs, that are here today gone tommorow so if theres damage from them there in the next city and could care less because they dont pay for it.
Also the music back then really had alot of midrange information so you did`nt need alot of power in the midrange section because of the way music was produced. They also had alot of range expanders or image enhancers back then as well that enhanced alot of info in the music as well so you did not need tons of power in those days you never seen Mccintosh 2300s on horns you just never needed that kind of power even today you don`t need that kind of power even thou most techs will disagree with me but you dont if you have proper speaker placement with the proper coverage you just will not need a macro 2400 for horn drivers.
They also designed systems back then with alot of speaker coverage so you had alot of audio in these clubs back then.
Today you don`t have the proper speaker coverage and mostly systems out there with way to much power on drivers & you prob will see macro tech 2400s on horn drivers today which is way too much power on horns, so you need to x-over these horns alot higher with higher x-over points with these type of amps. i would never design any system with this kind of power ratio on horns.
www.systemsbyshorty.com
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