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  #1  
Old 07-20-2012, 12:37 AM
herbalpudding herbalpudding is offline
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Question Cerwin Vega - W Bin "extenders" thoughts???

Fellow wavers,

I just spotted these vintage Cerwin Vega stacks on Craigslist and wanted to get your thoughts on them. I know a lot of manufacturers made Keele style "W" Bins in the 70's and 80's, but I didn't know that Cerwin Vega made ones that had optional extenders on them, kinda similar to the Levan horn concept.

The models in question appear to be L-48-CF or a B-48 (same dimensions, slightly different specs). I can't find a model name on the extenders. See the whole product line here and the specs here.

The main difference here, it seems, is that the design of the extenders require you to use the W Bins in a vertical arrangement rather than a horizontal one, which seems at odds with the standard Bertha design.






Does anyone have experience with these? Are they collectible, or worth listening to? I get the impression that these were the same type of subs that Richard Long installed in movie theaters for the "sensurround" effect for the movie Earthquake.

I have my eye more on the midrange cabinets, which look a lot like the GSA/SBS low-mid front horn boxes. Those highs are weird too!

Discuss!
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  #2  
Old 07-20-2012, 02:29 PM
Ryan0751 Ryan0751 is offline
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Whoa, look at that curved front projection screen to the left. Seems this person was way into home theater before it really existed!
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  #3  
Old 07-21-2012, 09:16 PM
Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson is offline
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Hi.

There was no reason for Cerwin Vega to make “Extenders” when the L 48 SE was 48” in depth.

That looks more like someone went to the lumberyard and created “Extenders” in hopes it would perform like Emeralds (you call it a Levan box) using one box. That defeats the whole purpose of the W Bin since they were design to be used in groups of four or eight stacked.


W Bins are only worth value in areas where they were not in abundance. New York had so many W Bins (and Scoops) not to mention shops on Canal Street that sold W Bins (in addition to Scoops) there is nothing rare about a W Bin.

The Smaller Cerwin Vega W Bin was usable to 60 Hz whereas, the larger one (long throw) was usable to around 40 – 45 Hz. The box pictured in the photo is the smaller version.

I was given four of those Cerwin Vegas (the smaller version) free in 1999 and gave them away free in 2007 after sitting in a basement doing nothing. The Folded Horn by Cerwin some people will consider value is their current 36 versions. Which, performs better than W Bins.

Best Regards,
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Last edited by Elliot Thompson : 07-21-2012 at 09:25 PM.
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  #4  
Old 07-22-2012, 11:50 AM
pbellsound pbellsound is offline
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Hey Elliot!

I agree, these surely have home brewed extensions on them. Without doing any comparative design R&D, they probably make the cabinets even worse.

However, used on a single cabinet, an extension may lower the frequency response a bit, xmax and compression chamber limited, of course, as it was designed to maximize at the cabinet's "normal" response.
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  #5  
Old 07-23-2012, 03:19 PM
herbalpudding herbalpudding is offline
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According to the poster on CL, the extenders came from Cerwin Vega. Not sure if this is true, but this is what he says:

Quote:
Includes (2) brand new 800 Watt 18" (Cerwin Vega 189-ES Earthquake speakers) in folded horn cabinets with Extenders! The extenders acoustically amplify the system's low frequencies to 32 Hz. @ 132 decibels (Cerwin Vega specifications, not mine)!

Thanks for the feedback though, interesting stuff.
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  #6  
Old 07-23-2012, 04:21 PM
Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herbalpudding
According to the poster on CL, the extenders came from Cerwin Vega. Not sure if this is true, but this is what he says:



Thanks for the feedback though, interesting stuff.

If you want to believe what a person on criagslist saying trying to sell a box opposed a person who owned those boxes and know exactly what they can and cannot do that, has nothing to gain/lose from telling you the truth, the choice is yours...

Best Regards,
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  #7  
Old 07-23-2012, 04:45 PM
Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbellsound
Hey Elliot!

I agree, these surely have home brewed extensions on them. Without doing any comparative design R&D, they probably make the cabinets even worse.

However, used on a single cabinet, an extension may lower the frequency response a bit, xmax and compression chamber limited, of course, as it was designed to maximize at the cabinet's "normal" response.

Hey Paul!

Any horn designer would see the error in the add-on extender as you noted.

Achieving bass extension in the home is so easy. All the person needed to do was place the horn in a corner and, they would achieve more bass extension than using those add on extensions. But of course, having an extender looks more intimidating to those who are not familiar with horn designs.

I remember the old Cerwin Vega woofers offering very little cone movement due to having an xmax 2.5 mm one-way. The QTS of Cerwin Vega 18-inch woofers are under at or under 0.2 (pending on which model is in the box) so they will not go low with a lot of output. Those cabinets would be looked upon as a mid-bass box in this day and age.
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  #8  
Old 07-23-2012, 05:00 PM
pbellsound pbellsound is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot Thompson
Those cabinets would be looked upon as a mid-bass box in this day and age.

That's right. There was a paper from Electro Voice from like the 70's stating that there was no usable audio below 60Hz so there was no need to make speakers to reproduce anything from that level or lower.
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  #9  
Old 07-23-2012, 06:12 PM
herbalpudding herbalpudding is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot Thompson
If you want to believe what a person on criagslist saying trying to sell a box opposed a person who owned those boxes and know exactly what they can and cannot do that, has nothing to gain/lose from telling you the truth, the choice is yours...

Best Regards,

Fair point, Elliot!!! I obviously trust your expertise here, I was just relaying what I was told.
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  #10  
Old 07-23-2012, 08:08 PM
Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson is offline
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I still have the information in Eminence Designer when I scaled the internal chamber of the W Bins pictured.

The chamber in which the 18-inch resides in is 4 cubic feet. Since the chamber is sealed, this is the –3 dB point using Cerwin Vega 189 18-inch driver.



As you can see, the –3 dB is 135 Hz.

The horn’s length is 4 feet (folded). Based on the frequency –vs- the speed of sound calculation, the horn will offer an extension of 70 Hz providing you are using four W Bins coupled together.

343.2 metres (speed of sound) / 70 (Hertz) =

16.07 feet Full space

8.035 feet half space

4.017 feet quarter space = four W Bins coupled together.

So even four boxes would not get you down to 50 Hz (which is not very low by today’s standards) with great efficiency. Since the horn will cut off at 70 Hz, the only means of extension is the sealed chamber the 18-inch is housed in. Unfortunately, the sealed chamber is –3 dB @ 135 Hz. So where does that leave you with frequencies ranging from 60 Hz – 30 Hz?

They perform superb for mid/kick bass providing you are using four to eight bins however you will need something to pick up where they leave off.

Best Regards,
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Last edited by Elliot Thompson : 07-23-2012 at 08:11 PM.
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  #11  
Old 08-02-2012, 06:58 AM
Fred Bissnette Fred Bissnette is offline
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looks like a super fun soundsystem with some tlc i bet it would rock hard

have fun man
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  #12  
Old 08-26-2012, 11:37 AM
herbalpudding herbalpudding is offline
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Just to follow up on this, I actually saw these CV boxes in person because as it turns out, the same dude was selling three Furman VU-40 meters at a good price as well.

He didn't demo the CV's for me but he did produce a brochure from Cerwin Vega that showed the same boxes with the extenders in question being used at an outdoor concert in the LA Coliseum from the late 70's. He said that his units were actually used at that same concert. So there is probably something to his claims, how much is 100% true I can't really say. He also mentioned that his were the first generation of models covered in fiberglass finish rather than carpet, and that the carpeted models were much more common.

This same guy also has two ridiculous servo-driven subs (Acoustic 2.6ST) with mammoth 26" magnet-less drivers on them. He had those hooked up so he played them for me, and they shook the living crap out of the walls in his basement. It was honestly a little scary! I was impressed but did not like the sound of it -- I found it disconcerting in a weird way. Apparently his dogs feel the same way about the subs, but let's not focus on what that says about me!

I pulled up an old conversation here about Bassmaxx and McCauley, and I totally get what you guys were talking about now. It's worth a read if you have a moment.

Oh, and I did see that projection screen TV. It was an Advent! He was very proud to have an American made TV. I have seen a few of those on CL in Boston, but here in the midwest they are probably rarer. Good times!
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  #13  
Old 08-26-2012, 03:50 PM
pbellsound pbellsound is offline
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Boy that thread brings back memories. It's good to see Scotty blabbing about his favorite subject, subs.
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  #14  
Old 08-29-2012, 12:05 PM
Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herbalpudding
Just to follow up on this, I actually saw these CV boxes in person because as it turns out, the same dude was selling three Furman VU-40 meters at a good price as well.

He didn't demo the CV's for me but he did produce a brochure from Cerwin Vega that showed the same boxes with the extenders in question being used at an outdoor concert in the LA Coliseum from the late 70's. He said that his units were actually used at that same concert. So there is probably something to his claims, how much is 100% true I can't really say. He also mentioned that his were the first generation of models covered in fiberglass finish rather than carpet, and that the carpeted models were much more common.


If those extenders do not offer a model number, chances are they were a prototype in which Cerwin Vega abandoned. Any horn designer would see that those extenders are incomplete in design.

In New York fibreglass horns were very popular. The ones I owned and gave away were fibreglass as well.

I still have one AST W-Bin with a Cerwin Vega driver inside. The dimensions are nearly the same (The AST is wider) as the Cerwin Vega. I could measure the box if you want to see the frequency curve.

Best Regards,
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  #15  
Old 08-29-2012, 11:00 PM
pbellsound pbellsound is offline
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Elliot, is that an Ass Kicker? You know I worked there in the early 80's....
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  #16  
Old 08-30-2012, 06:00 PM
Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson is offline
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Hi Paul!

Yes, it is the old AST Ass Kicker (with the horse logo) with the metal bar on the rear of the enclosure. Did you sell these when you worked in AST in the 1980’s?

Best Regards,
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  #17  
Old 08-30-2012, 09:42 PM
pbellsound pbellsound is offline
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Naaa, I was in the original repair shop across from the showroom. Back then the best woofers were the Gauss woofers and the 500 watt Cerwin Vega woofers.
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