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  #1  
Old 03-22-2012, 01:02 PM
John-Martin John-Martin is offline
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Installer training

The thread about the new EAW Avalon series has me wondering, when you sign on to sell a brand like EAW, Martin, JBL, etc. do the installers have to go through some sort of training so they sell and install the way the manufacturer intended?

We have an EAW Avalon system here and it sounds awful, you know you're leaving with tinitus if you spend the night dancing however on off nights when they only run it half on and without the tweeter arrays on it sounds good; loud clear. I can't see EAW designing one of their flagship systems to sound that loud and unclear. It seems like they'd want their installers trained on how the system is supposed to be installed as a good install gets more business for both of them.

I've seen that Adam (ATF104) has actually gone to Community and worked with designers on projects and learned more about the products he's using. Is that the norm or are most companies just throwing out products with installers to figure it out for themselves.
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  #2  
Old 03-22-2012, 01:10 PM
Mistick Krewe Mistick Krewe is offline
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I would hope that training is provided, much like authorized service centers (reconers, etc)
must also be trained and certified by the factory to keep items operating as factory spec'ed....
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  #3  
Old 03-22-2012, 09:26 PM
der geile ami der geile ami is offline
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generally, no, though some manufacturers require initial minimum purchases to ensure the system owners are not jsut trying to hide behind a brand name and operator training (line array rigging and calculation software for some), but most are trying to move units and the cost of them alone should filter out those with no clue.

however, ive seen manufacture led press of installs where half the speaker is effectively firing into the ceiling, speaking of community. speaking of community, im at hte musikmesse this week (the void stack looks crazy, will try to hear it this evening), but community was rocking their catalog from last year. there is more floor space than 6 years ago, but the vendors have much more modest stands going on.
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  #4  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:54 PM
Mistick Krewe Mistick Krewe is offline
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interesting.... proven wrong yet again!
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  #5  
Old 03-23-2012, 12:58 AM
atf104 atf104 is offline
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The answer John I would say is a pretty solid no as most in the industry I believe will back up. When you get into more niche areas like Funtion One and perhaps the Dynacord Alpha Concept stuff, there might be some direct interaction with the factory, but in general no.

And at that, as I've stated in the past and am a firm believer in, 60% (and that's being generous) of a system is the gear with a large portion of the sound being the setup, design and especially equalization. I think we've all walked into rooms with some very good quality gear sounding like poo. In the end, you can't buy or train someone to have a good ear. My thoughts are you just have to have reference to a great system, to base what you think is good sound on.

There are some great peeps at many of the manufacturers. I've had some really great training from the BSS people, but it's generally more design oriented, not tuning related. But as you stated, for me at least, the people at Community are a special bunch. I had a conversation with Bruce the owner over there one time when we were discussing Community actually building some of the original Berthas designed by Long. Beyond that, those guys are just a wealth of knowledge in vintage audio and as most know here I just think their horn-loaded cabinets (designed in the 80's, the SLS stuff) is some of the best sounding stuff you can buy.

I am very interested to hear the new JBL Marquees series though. Regarding the Avalon stuff, I've heard some Avalon systems that will literally rip your head off. Out of the box they need a lot of work, probably more then JBL. I've tuned a few over the years and heard them sound fairly good but you can do some serious hearing damage with an Avalon system in the wrong hands lol.
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  #6  
Old 03-23-2012, 05:41 AM
der geile ami der geile ami is offline
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funktion one might try to guide their customers one way or the other, but they will still deliver to whoever forks over hte money, as I have witnessed in 2 berliner clubs, for better or worse
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  #7  
Old 03-23-2012, 11:09 AM
Balaroue Balaroue is offline
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I haven’t been a fan of EAW’s avalon from day 1, and the 1st was installed by them. I think it’s a mixed blessing manufacturers don’t offer training because more often then not, they don’t know what they’re talking about. I don’t mean to say they don’t know anything, I’m talking application specific. Forsythe at EAW could school everyone in this forum, but it’s not like he’d be the guy teaching the class.

That’s the value of a good installer, they can meet the needs of the room. I don’t know if they still do, but JBL used to offer analysis in house (at a cost). Unfortunately, it was based on their products and the size of the space... not the space itself.

I think much of the install market these day’s is based on loudness, quality is far down the list. Some of these newer club’s are deafening.
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  #8  
Old 03-23-2012, 01:07 PM
atf104 atf104 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balaroue
I think much of the install market these day’s is based on loudness, quality is far down the list. Some of these newer club’s are deafening.

What? What? lol

That and launching new products that "look cool", "weigh less" and are "IP based" (great for the contracting av integrator, worthless for hi-fi nightclub audio). On top of that the "brand name" thing still holds water to many. I had someone local tell me JBL sounds better because "it's JBL". This was someone who called them self a "sound engineer" as well.
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  #9  
Old 03-23-2012, 03:20 PM
der geile ami der geile ami is offline
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funny, plenty also say jbl stands for "junk, but loud!"

i just spent 2 days a the musikmesse - some awful sounding products proudly demonstrated by their companies, and there were actually audiences which did not scatter!

i dont think that IP based is necessarily a bad thing for nightclub systems if it means that the technician can walk the floor with a tablet for tweaks by ear.
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  #10  
Old 03-23-2012, 09:46 PM
pbellsound pbellsound is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balaroue
I think much of the install market these day’s is based on loudness, quality is far down the list. Some of these newer club’s are deafening.

I would agree with this.

The people today are in the IPOD/MP3 generation and are so accustomed to poor sound that they don't think anything's wrong. How many people do you see with and IPOD & ear buds so loud you can hear the distortion ten feet away? And car stereos? I seen so many kids simply turning the factory stereo up to max and the distortion is louder than any discernible "music" And these people will click to the next track after 1:30 of any song.

I just finished a place in Florida. The promoters wanted to test the system with the worst music, I had to hold my ears.

OK, rant over, onto the OP's question.

Manufacturers will sell any gear to any dealer. You just need to qualify as a dealer. Not a dealer? They'll guide you to one.

Sadly, anybody who's installed a car stereo thinks they can do a club install.

The only company that will NOT sell gear like that is D&B. Very clever those Germans.
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  #11  
Old 03-23-2012, 09:47 PM
pbellsound pbellsound is offline
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Also, I've never heard an EAW anything that I was too impressed with. And they're service support for legacy products sucks.
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  #12  
Old 03-23-2012, 10:53 PM
R_Dub R_Dub is offline
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one of the clubs i have a residency at has new Fulcrum soundsystem and Fulcrum sent there own crew in to install. not sure if thats the norm or not but they did a tight job!
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  #13  
Old 03-24-2012, 06:46 AM
Estacy Estacy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbellsound
The only company that will NOT sell gear like that is D&B. Very clever those Germans.

a local venue here sets up a 2 stack D&B system every time they use the room for events and parties, and I must say, the power and sound is amazing. up to a 1000 people it can handle beautifully and the sound is so smooth, there are other venues that have systems where the horntweeters are up so loud you can feel them....
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  #14  
Old 03-24-2012, 07:35 AM
Fred Bissnette Fred Bissnette is offline
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the pro audio industry is full of people that dont know much its really sad, i work for a large touring company and we see soundtechs come in all the time and not know how to rig line arrays or tune a pa its pretty sad when a guy from a touring show comes in and does not know how to put together a basic line array and the local crew shows him how to rig it for flying hehe.
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  #15  
Old 03-24-2012, 01:50 PM
der geile ami der geile ami is offline
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l'acoustics are also particular on who they sell to.

in general, the closed system types make it simpler to not fuck up processing settings.

nexo, d&b, l'acoustic, meyer, duran audio, etc - the speakers are by default active or require a proprietary processor/processor-amp to properly function, and the user cant then fuck up xover settings, etc.

of course, flying and aiing is a different story. line arrays require aiming software, and some, like duran and martin audio new series, require venue specific information to finish processing. The high price tag keeps many of the idiots at bay, but sophisticated looking products with lower entry costs keep the hacks at work.
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  #16  
Old 03-25-2012, 05:26 PM
atf104 atf104 is offline
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I guess my comment on IP based stuff was a bit strong and only meant in certain context. I personally don't care for dsp-in-amp, but absolutely appreciate and love IP based DSP's, and especially new digital audio transports like BLU-LINK (which now allows you to send audio from processor directly to amp in the Harman world). It's all about the right product for the right job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by der geile ami
funny, plenty also say jbl stands for "junk, but loud!"

i just spent 2 days a the musikmesse - some awful sounding products proudly demonstrated by their companies, and there were actually audiences which did not scatter!

i dont think that IP based is necessarily a bad thing for nightclub systems if it means that the technician can walk the floor with a tablet for tweaks by ear.
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  #17  
Old 03-25-2012, 08:22 PM
der geile ami der geile ami is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atf104
I guess my comment on IP based stuff was a bit strong and only meant in certain context. I personally don't care for dsp-in-amp, but absolutely appreciate and love IP based DSP's, and especially new digital audio transports like BLU-LINK (which now allows you to send audio from processor directly to amp in the Harman world). It's all about the right product for the right job.


the way i see it, why have a separate dsp if the amps can link together and be controlled by the same software?

some lab gruppen amps have lake dsps in them.

nexos amps have their dsps in them.

same goes for l'acoustics

is a crown xti in the same league, of course not

i know one local provider that uses dbx 260s and powersoft k series amps, which really baffles me, as the dsp in those amps is likely a few notches higher in quality.

my hope for the future is that more mixers will have ethernet outputs and we reduce our need for noisy copper runs. audio over lan can carry 64 channels in both directions, so all devices could share the same network and an ipad instead of a fullsize tablet can control and monitor everything. even better would be wlan, but we are still a long ways away from reliable high quality transmission.

note: it doesnt have to be an ipad, but that is the default device the big boy live mixer companies are writing their control apps for.
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Old 03-25-2012, 08:57 PM
atf104 atf104 is offline
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For general commercial audio I'm all for it. It definitely simplifies system design.

I guess my issue for higher end stuff is placing DACs in amps. It's the whole buying a home receiver vs separates thing. It could be my baggage to the past but I do feel a centralized DSP with high-end DACs is the way to go for higher end audio.


Quote:
Originally Posted by der geile ami
the way i see it, why have a separate dsp if the amps can link together and be controlled by the same software?

some lab gruppen amps have lake dsps in them.

nexos amps have their dsps in them.

same goes for l'acoustics

is a crown xti in the same league, of course not

i know one local provider that uses dbx 260s and powersoft k series amps, which really baffles me, as the dsp in those amps is likely a few notches higher in quality.

my hope for the future is that more mixers will have ethernet outputs and we reduce our need for noisy copper runs. audio over lan can carry 64 channels in both directions, so all devices could share the same network and an ipad instead of a fullsize tablet can control and monitor everything. even better would be wlan, but we are still a long ways away from reliable high quality transmission.

note: it doesnt have to be an ipad, but that is the default device the big boy live mixer companies are writing their control apps for.
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  #19  
Old 03-26-2012, 06:57 PM
Richi Richi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by der geile ami
my hope for the future is that more mixers will have ethernet outputs and we reduce our need for noisy copper runs. audio over lan can carry 64 channels in both directions, so all devices could share the same network and an ipad instead of a fullsize tablet can control and monitor everything. even better would be wlan, but we are still a long ways away from reliable high quality transmission.

What would you do if your have all your Audio running over a LAN and all of sudden some device begins emitting spurious data errors such as collisions or frame errors, how would you diagnose the terrible delay problems and lost packets?

What if the club is big and requires cable runs longer than 100 meters, you then need to install Fibre Optics to ensure error free transmission. This is going to be cost prohibtive.

We would need to be calling a Cisco CCN out to find out why the audio sounds lke shit.

Even over a Gigabit LAN, with compressd voice codecs there are issues with delay and echo. Full Bandwidth audio is not something i would like to trust over a LAN, especially not Wireless.

Last edited by Richi : 03-26-2012 at 07:21 PM.
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  #20  
Old 03-26-2012, 10:03 PM
der geile ami der geile ami is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richi
What would you do if your have all your Audio running over a LAN and all of sudden some device begins emitting spurious data errors such as collisions or frame errors, how would you diagnose the terrible delay problems and lost packets?

What if the club is big and requires cable runs longer than 100 meters, you then need to install Fibre Optics to ensure error free transmission. This is going to be cost prohibtive.

We would need to be calling a Cisco CCN out to find out why the audio sounds lke shit.

Even over a Gigabit LAN, with compressd voice codecs there are issues with delay and echo. Full Bandwidth audio is not something i would like to trust over a LAN, especially not Wireless.

i dont have answers for all your questions, but the fact is that there are many live gigs in stadium sized venues using ehternet between their consoles and racks. these are gigs where much more is at stake than a couple thousand people in a club.

and really, more than a 100m run in a club? Where? and why arent speaker run lossess an obvious issue in that scenario? lets say a club is big enough ot need 100m signal runs, do you really think whatever networking costs there might be will put a dent in the budget.

one ofhte venues in the complex i work at is actually 100m long, and we have much more costly issues to think about, nevermind what equivalent copper capacities would cost.
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  #21  
Old 03-26-2012, 10:12 PM
der geile ami der geile ami is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atf104
For general commercial audio I'm all for it. It definitely simplifies system design.

I guess my issue for higher end stuff is placing DACs in amps. It's the whole buying a home receiver vs separates thing. It could be my baggage to the past but I do feel a centralized DSP with high-end DACs is the way to go for higher end audio.

what is wrong with splitting the dsp? imagine audio and control on the same cable. works for nexo.

in the scope of high end boutique danceclub sound, imagine a 3 way isolator where instead of analog outputs, 6 channels go through one cable and a tab/pad is used to tell which amps do what with which output.

how about surround? you get 64 channels to freak out with.

sure, you could process it all with a dsp which has enough i/o, but all you really need from that dsp is the gui, which doesnt need actual number crunching to be central.
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