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  #26  
Old 11-05-2009, 03:11 AM
Lime Twig Lime Twig is offline
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Got it, BBC.

Sadly, the Unisync PMS-1 meter I bought off Craigslist for $40 doesn't work. It seems to flicker a bit when you move the sensitivity slider on the back but something isn't working

And all that after I built my own cables to make the RCA to speaker cable connection work!
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  #27  
Old 11-05-2009, 04:39 AM
misterharrison misterharrison is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djdbo
Probably cause it colors the audio. Most people will use their unbalance output for the meters, while using their balanced output to feed the amp. (In the case of a Bozak)
It doesn't matter which way round you do this as the Bozak's XLR outputs are actually unbalanced.
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  #28  
Old 11-05-2009, 05:47 AM
NAVDEEP NAVDEEP is offline
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My 2 cents I would go with some dorrough A2 vu meters I love mine ! you can find them cheap sometimes on fleebay
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  #29  
Old 11-05-2009, 08:01 AM
misterharrison misterharrison is offline
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This thread makes some interesting points about the detrimental effects of connecting things to a Bozak's effects loop (tape out). I'm not sure I understand it fully, but it seems that something about impedance means that connecting anything at all (including a meter, I suppose) leads to some high-frequency roll-off. I've never heard about the tape-out "buffer cards" they mention, either.


Basically I'm trying to work out the 'best' way to connect my DLA's outputs to an amplifier, a soundcard (for recording) and a meter. I've got a dedicated booth card, so I'm thinking of going like this:

Main outs - amplifier
Booth outs - meter - soundcard

This way I avoid using the effects loop at all and I can meter exactly what's going into the soundcard. This assumes, of course, that the meter doesn't degrade the sound in any way. If it does, then is a y-splitter a better option?

Then there's the issue of where to put an isolator, if I get one. I'm guessing between the main outs and the amplifier. Or am I being paranoid about the effects loop? When I get home tonight I'm going to try running an RCA cable from out to in and then switch between loop and direct to see if I hear any difference.
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  #30  
Old 11-05-2009, 12:24 PM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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I personaly wouldn't bother with Y-Spitters, they also change the sound as you change the loading.
If you know where unity is on your knob on Urei or Bozak or what ever mixer that works in the same way you don't really need a vu on the House and Booth outs if it's your own home system imo.

I know at just over 7 on my booth on the 1620LE it will pump exactly what the UV meter is displaying on the tape out.
Also the A&H mixer I had it's own VU was setup pre-master so it worked in the same way.

The way I have mine setup is like this>
-RCA Booth Out > Amp&Speakers
-Transformer Balanced House Out > Audio Interface on laptop (cos of the transformer I also don't suffer from ground loop issues happy days)
-Tape Out 1 > VU Meter
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  #31  
Old 11-07-2009, 09:43 PM
Lime Twig Lime Twig is offline
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Mr. H,

I have a DLA as well. I just bought a GSA isolator and installed it into the effects loop. it sounds transparent, I can't hear any change whatsoever when i switch from loop to direct on the Bozak. If you get a good isolator, I don't think you need to worry at all about routing something through the loop.

As for the other connections, I would run the booth to your soundcard - after all, that's one place where a separate level control is useful - and run the meter off the unbalanced outputs from the Bozak's mains. Those RCA outs might as well be used for something!

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterharrison
This thread makes some interesting points about the detrimental effects of connecting things to a Bozak's effects loop (tape out). I'm not sure I understand it fully, but it seems that something about impedance means that connecting anything at all (including a meter, I suppose) leads to some high-frequency roll-off. I've never heard about the tape-out "buffer cards" they mention, either.


Basically I'm trying to work out the 'best' way to connect my DLA's outputs to an amplifier, a soundcard (for recording) and a meter. I've got a dedicated booth card, so I'm thinking of going like this:

Main outs - amplifier
Booth outs - meter - soundcard

This way I avoid using the effects loop at all and I can meter exactly what's going into the soundcard. This assumes, of course, that the meter doesn't degrade the sound in any way. If it does, then is a y-splitter a better option?

Then there's the issue of where to put an isolator, if I get one. I'm guessing between the main outs and the amplifier. Or am I being paranoid about the effects loop? When I get home tonight I'm going to try running an RCA cable from out to in and then switch between loop and direct to see if I hear any difference.
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  #32  
Old 11-08-2009, 06:36 AM
misterharrison misterharrison is offline
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Thanks for the thoughtful reply, LT.

Unfortunately, on my unit it doesn't seem to be quite as simple as you make out.

Firstly, last night I tried what I suggested in my previous post. I connected an RCA cable straight from the loop outs to the loop ins and ran some pink noise through the mixer. I then tried switching the switch between loop and direct and clearly heard some high-frequency roll-off when the loop was engaged (through my JBL L65s, which have a very clear and extended tweeter). This makes me reluctant to connect an Isolator this way. However, it also made me realise that simply connecting a meter to the loop outs without the signal coming back in at the loop ins will be fine, so I'm happy to connect a meter here.

Secondly, I've had my booth card implemented in such a way that I no longer have two different sets of outputs for the mains. I used the RCAs above the XLRs as the booth outputs and replaced the (unbalanced) XLRs with high-quality Neutrik RCAs for the main output. As an aside, I've noticed that the booth output seems to bypass the tone controls, which is great for getting clean rips, but not so good if you want to record a DJ set including any EQ adjustments. I'm going to have this changed when I'm next back in the UK.

All of which leaves me with the issue of where to hook up an Isolator, which is not what this thread is about. I will just say that I can obviously hook it up between the main outputs and the amplifier, but then Iso adjustments won't go to the soundcard to be recorded. But then maybe I don't want them to? I suspect that Isolator-fiddling (every now and then, not ALL THE TIME!) sounds good on the dancefloor but not so good on a recording.

So to bring it back on topic, connecting a METER to the Bozak's tape/loop outs will not affect the sound at the mains, as long as you don't try to bring the signal back in a the loop ins.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Lime Twig
Mr. H,

I have a DLA as well. I just bought a GSA isolator and installed it into the effects loop. it sounds transparent, I can't hear any change whatsoever when i switch from loop to direct on the Bozak. If you get a good isolator, I don't think you need to worry at all about routing something through the loop.

As for the other connections, I would run the booth to your soundcard - after all, that's one place where a separate level control is useful - and run the meter off the unbalanced outputs from the Bozak's mains. Those RCA outs might as well be used for something!
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  #33  
Old 11-08-2009, 07:12 AM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misterharrison
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, LT.

Unfortunately, on my unit it doesn't seem to be quite as simple as you make out.

Firstly, last night I tried what I suggested in my previous post. I connected an RCA cable straight from the loop outs to the loop ins and ran some pink noise through the mixer. I then tried switching the switch between loop and direct and clearly heard some high-frequency roll-off when the loop was engaged


C'mon Bozak people help out this dude, try searching Wave as I think this is an issue with older Bozak mixers where the FX loop is not buffered and the roll off is due to something to do with the impedance.
I remember reading something like this a while back, try asking Buzzy or emailing Justin at Isonoe as both these guys have very good knowledge of this mixer
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  #34  
Old 11-08-2009, 07:17 AM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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Here you go

http://www.wavemusic.com/community/s...ght=bozak+loop

Here is one of the posts from that topic that, but check out the link as there is more

"Hi,

As a rule, in the world of professional audio, most equipment is capable of driving down to 600 Ohms, with rare exception (the old impedance matching standard was for 600 Ohm, so when new gear came along it had to be compatible; although this is going back in time, the concept of being able to drive 600 Ohms stuck around as it’s a good rule for numerous reasons, even in the modern world, and allows one to split outputs etc without extra buffering).

The CMA-10-2-DL-series is unusual for a piece of pro gear, in that in the manual, it specifies that the tape out should be terminated by a minimum impedance of 10K. There are various reasons for this; unlike 99% of the gear in the marketplace, the Bozak’s circuitry design is original and quite quirky – as opposed to being copied from others or based on embellished apps data.

Here are some suggestions:

Try connecting a cable from Send to Return and flicking the Insert switch – do you hear any HF loss? (The DLA-onwards (DLO included) models have a slightly lower output impedance courtesy of their different transistors)

Can you borrow an isolator of the model you want and try it? Do you know its Input Impedance?

I hate to sound pretentious, but – as someone who develops hardware for a living – I have no option but to demo everything in an acoustically-treated room, via highly analytical biamped monitoring. My monitoring is not everyone’s idea of ‘fun’, if you know what I mean…studio monitoring isn’t supposed to be ‘nice’… I hear HF loss when I hit the switch…however, if you prefer a more ‘euphonic’ or vintage type of speaker, you may not notice the drop! Some people might even call it ‘warm’! One mixer I serviced had particularly bad HF loss, but the client doesn’t mind!

The DLO is one of the latest models, so you have the best chance. If all else fails, maybe you can ask John to find you a buffer card like he showed us in the other thread?? My guess is that the card consists of a simple emitter-follower arrangement with no more than 3 transistors – am I warm, John?

BTW – The XLR and RCA are fed from the same amp card. This is another unusual quirk, in that the XLR (as we all know) is unbalanced. The good thing is that the output stage is beefy (as I’ve said before – I like the ‘elegance’ of the cards being shared from Main and Cans), so you can probably drive plenty of inputs with it – I haven’t tried, but if it can handle 150 Ohm headphones, that translates to a lot of 10K line inputs.

Justin
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  #35  
Old 11-08-2009, 07:26 AM
misterharrison misterharrison is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misterharrison
This thread makes some interesting points about the detrimental effects of connecting things to a Bozak's effects loop (tape out).
Thanks for the effort, mate, but I already linked to that thread earlier!

I think I'm going to leave it there, as I am already in contact with Justin at Isonoe about this - he's the one who refurbed my Bozak so I'll deal with him about any further mods.
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  #36  
Old 11-08-2009, 09:25 PM
Mistick Krewe Mistick Krewe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinyl_junkie
If you know where unity is on your knob on Urei or Bozak or what ever mixer that works in the same way you don't really need a vu on the House and Booth outs if it's your own home system imo.



it's funny you say this...

I had my meters set not on unity as a reference,
but at a "generally acceptable" SPL for when friends come over....

red was hit WAY BELOW clipping, matter of fact well below 0db...

as they are all freakign deaf or something.....

if they got caught screwing around, i had a limiter to put inline....

i live in a townhouse, and can't have them getting me complaints!


certain meters don't have easily accessible adjustments for this....
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  #37  
Old 11-09-2009, 09:19 AM
bbc bbc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misterharrison
All of which leaves me with the issue of where to hook up an Isolator, which is not what this thread is about. I will just say that I can obviously hook it up between the main outputs and the amplifier, but then Iso adjustments won't go to the soundcard to be recorded. But then maybe I don't want them to? I suspect that Isolator-fiddling (every now and then, not ALL THE TIME!) sounds good on the dancefloor but not so good on a recording.

If you have an isolator with a separate effects loop like the GSA and the Thrive (I think?) you could run the isolator between your mixer and amp, and run your sound card on the isolators loop. The loop is post isolator right?
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  #38  
Old 11-14-2009, 02:49 AM
Lime Twig Lime Twig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misterharrison
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, LT.

Unfortunately, on my unit it doesn't seem to be quite as simple as you make out.

Firstly, last night I tried what I suggested in my previous post. I connected an RCA cable straight from the loop outs to the loop ins and ran some pink noise through the mixer. I then tried switching the switch between loop and direct and clearly heard some high-frequency roll-off when the loop was engaged (through my JBL L65s, which have a very clear and extended tweeter). This makes me reluctant to connect an Isolator this way. However, it also made me realise that simply connecting a meter to the loop outs without the signal coming back in at the loop ins will be fine, so I'm happy to connect a meter here.

Well, now you've got me doubting my ears! More precisely, my ears listening to my less than clinical stereo! If I checked this thoroughly with pink noise, at high volume, and with extended HF maybe I'd hear the difference too. I was quite surprised when I didn't hear any difference at all to be honest, it makes sense there should be some change in the sound.

Suffice to say, any change was inaudible in my quite good but not audiophile system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterharrison
So to bring it back on topic, connecting a METER to the Bozak's tape/loop outs will not affect the sound at the mains, as long as you don't try to bring the signal back in a the loop ins.

This I don't understand. How are you getting any sound out of the mains if the loop doesn't... loop? I thought this needed to be connected or switched to "direct"?

Does this have something to do with your modified outputs?
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  #39  
Old 11-14-2009, 02:54 AM
Lime Twig Lime Twig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbc
If you have an isolator with a separate effects loop like the GSA and the Thrive (I think?) you could run the isolator between your mixer and amp, and run your sound card on the isolators loop. The loop is post isolator right?

Now that is a very creative solution. Nice one.
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  #40  
Old 11-14-2009, 05:52 AM
misterharrison misterharrison is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lime Twig
This I don't understand. How are you getting any sound out of the mains if the loop doesn't... loop? I thought this needed to be connected or switched to "direct"?
When the switch is set to Direct, the loop outs act as tape outs. As far as I'm aware that's normal on all Bozaks.
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