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  #1  
Old 11-23-2008, 04:14 AM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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So i just purchased 2 Ext DACS for my SBS REF system

I ordered 2 Lavry DA 10 external dacs today for my Technics cd players. Its amazing what they do for music, I will post pics once I install them in my system.

After I listening to music through the Lavry DA10 vs the Benchmark DAC1, the DAC1 wasent as natural as i liked, it began to have a grainy sound in the Top end, it was just a colored sound, just had a edgy sound or I would even say a small amount of distortion around the notes.

After I went bac and forth from the DAC1, then back to the DA10, everything was cleaner and clearer with the Lavry DA 10. Live instruments with the DA10 are presented in their own respective space and sounded rt to my ears over the DAC1.The soundstage thru the DA 10 is very wide and very spacial with the DA10, it can sound a bit 1 dimensional and alot smaller thru the DAC1 in comparison.

What I loved the most about the DA10 is not only all the features, but it has amazing seperation, just that three dimensionality & depth in the sound field, that i feel just sounds rt. you can really see where the musicians are on the stage as if they were performing rt there

You hear deeper into the source & very alive/realistic with the DA10, live drums sound explosive thru the DA 10.

After listening for a while testing the DAC1 and the DA10, I much prefered the DA10 as my purchase, & after a while of listenin for a few days at a store on high quality monitors Dynaudio M3s to be exact, I didn't wanna listen to the DAC1 anymore.

The DA10 just sounds that much better IMHO, so i purchased 2 of them, i am now demoing digital cables i will try Apogee, monster, Cardas, i wanna see what MIT has to offer aswell

Here is the DA 10 http://www.lavryengineering.com/index_html.html

Last edited by soundmanshorty : 11-24-2008 at 03:15 PM.
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  #2  
Old 11-24-2008, 09:42 AM
dialect dialect is offline
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Out of interest, did you reconfigure the internal jumpers to have the unit play unbalanced? Did this make any difference to the units performance?
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  #3  
Old 11-24-2008, 10:36 AM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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No, i did

not , i used the xlr out, but there is a 6 db diff when used jumpin to unbalanced so it wil have alot less drive.

Last edited by soundmanshorty : 11-24-2008 at 03:23 PM.
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  #4  
Old 11-25-2008, 08:00 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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So i just ordered cables

For my Lavry DA 10s.

For the rca SPDIF digital out of the Technics players I chose Monster, as Tech support at Lavry said either MIT or Monster is a great cable and will perform the same and i wil not hear a diff, but where i will hear the dif to purchase higher quality interconnects at the Analog out section of the dac.

So I chose MIT AVT 1 stereo rca cables, http://www.mitcables.com/index.php?o...product_id=235

I love my shotgun 330 series MIT cables and it was a slap in the face diff to my Mogami cables, so i ordered these because of my satisfaction # 1, & #2 if i bought another brand or lower entry level MIT i would have kicked myself for not getting the ones i really wanted which are the MIT AVT 1 cables.

Another thing i love about the MIT cables is there twist locking interconect so it is snug tight to the input.

Being that i am coming out balanced from the DA10 i will have to move jumpers around internally of the DA10 for a Unbalanced signal to be excepted on my 1620

Here is a review if you are interested:

http://www.mitcables.com/index.php?o...ask=view&id=62

Last edited by soundmanshorty : 11-25-2008 at 08:06 PM.
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  #5  
Old 11-26-2008, 01:50 AM
bartonn bartonn is offline
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Hey Shorty!-

When your fucking your girl, does she come in analog or digital? How do her screams refract off of the walls? Do you have to compensate with a an ISO or a crossover?

Just askin'

-B


Note to self, stop drunken posting!
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  #6  
Old 11-26-2008, 02:03 AM
bartonn bartonn is offline
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PS - I love you Craig. Stereo rocked my world.
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  #7  
Old 11-26-2008, 07:05 AM
dialect dialect is offline
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Slightly confused. The MIT cables are phono both ends and the Lavry only has XLR outputs so will you be using something like this to convert?:

http://www.studiospares.com/Adaptors...kt/invt/581030

I've got the same issue with my Apogee Mini DAC's. At the moment i use the 1/8' unbalanced output but I would much rather the security of the XLR's, I beleve that you can have a play with the pots inside to bring the output level down but i'm not sure about swopping from balanced to unbalanced.
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  #8  
Old 11-26-2008, 07:30 AM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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learn some class

Quote:
Originally Posted by bartonn
Hey Shorty!-

When your fucking your girl, does she come in analog or digital? How do her screams refract off of the walls? Do you have to compensate with a an ISO or a crossover?

Just askin'

-B


Note to self, stop drunken posting!


my friend and act mature, i find this not to be a funny question, very childish and disrespectful

Last edited by soundmanshorty : 11-26-2008 at 10:47 AM.
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  #9  
Old 11-26-2008, 07:36 AM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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Yea I

Quote:
Originally Posted by dialect
Slightly confused. The MIT cables are phono both ends and the Lavry only has XLR outputs so will you be using something like this to convert?:

http://www.studiospares.com/Adaptors...kt/invt/581030

I've got the same issue with my Apogee Mini DAC's. At the moment i use the 1/8' unbalanced output but I would much rather the security of the XLR's, I beleve that you can have a play with the pots inside to bring the output level down but i'm not sure about swopping from balanced to unbalanced.

will have to use this exact adapter for it to work in my set up. Because of the bal out only xlr. that was the only advantage i liked the BM dac1 over this, but because of the sound quality difff being so superior over the benchmark i went with the DA10 and will use this adapter and have no issues.
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  #10  
Old 11-26-2008, 11:40 AM
pmdubs pmdubs is offline
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you don't really need an adaptor

Just set the jumper inside the Lavry to your choice (pin 2 or pin 3 hot) of unbalanced configurations and make a cable thats wired for unbalanced xlr - rca......

EP
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  #11  
Old 11-27-2008, 01:12 AM
Reticuli Reticuli is offline
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Coax sounds better than optical. Keep the runs short. Buy good construction ones that aren't intermittant, and I think that's probably going to be sufficient for the SPDIF. I highly doubt in a double blind test you could hear the difference beyond that between monster and radioshack, though sometimes I find the latter too tight. Most 75ohm component cables are good enough.

I definitely would not run the DAC balanced, though. Most balanced outs are not anywere near as accurate as the original unbalanced signal. You can do an easy test splitting the component + & - signals, sending one as L and the other as R into a pro sound card. Then compare the two signals for frequency response and how correctly aligned the out-of-phase signal is on both. Simply combining the two as mono in the recording program/editor will tell you how much is erroneously canceling...the remainder. Splitting a single RCA and doing the same will verify that the card is accurate to begin with.

I tested an old Rane that was bunk. An advantage that was WAAAY off. Two biamps that were off. Even two different Xone mixers showed phasing going slightly out of perfect unalignment towards the high-end, which is why most A&H mixers sound a bit smooth and polite on big systems...they're using the XLR. Use the + with TS phone connectors or the unbalanced RCA outs, and you got none of that...just accurate. Only one Alesis unit has checked out what I would consider pretty acceptable.

This is absolutely the reason balanced should only be used on runs over 15ft AND where degradation is picked up. Otherwise, there's a good chance you're messing up the sound. I would just put your new dacs directly under or to the side of each Technics player, with cushion under/on. Shorter runs of decent quality RCA cables will drastically improve it over balanced. About the only thing I think balanced is justified for is microphones & pro digital signal transmission. Otherwise, I'd do everything in my power to get the gear close enough not to need it.

I have lost the balanced religion...and have myself become unbalanced and, dare I say, unhinged, by the experience.
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  #12  
Old 11-27-2008, 03:11 AM
Special.K Special.K is offline
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this may be a stupid question Shorty but i am about to add a couple of CD players and most likely DACs to my console and i want to know if there is a reason you use the Technics CD players are they better than the pioneer, i only ever saw one for a couple of seconds and it seemed solid but is there a benefit to using it over a CDJ1000.

Kieren.
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  #13  
Old 11-27-2008, 03:30 AM
Special.K Special.K is offline
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i have always wondered why all these DJ crossovers (i have a SDX3500) are unbalanced!

Kieren.
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  #14  
Old 11-27-2008, 03:33 AM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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for a few reasons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Special.K
this may be a stupid question Shorty but i am about to add a couple of CD players and most likely DACs to my console and i want to know if there is a reason you use the Technics CD players are they better than the pioneer, i only ever saw one for a couple of seconds and it seemed solid but is there a benefit to using it over a CDJ1000.

Kieren.

i went with the technics over the pioneer Because str8 out of the box it sounds better, which is most important for me, i know most don`t care about sound quality i do

2. the technics, its built like a tank and you can tell its built well when you pic it up it feels like a quality piece when you hold it.

3 i like the spinning platter in my mind im using a turntable and the features, over the pioneer, the techincs works like my turntables and i feel like im playin with turntables.

4 when i touch and use the pioneer it feels like a toy, and from my exp in clubs they dont hold up, i have had alot of problems with the pioneers breaking down alot and we have to always buy new ones after a while. Im not into the features like most are for my listening use on my HIFI system, i understand what the djs love about the features, makin the records studder and all that stuff they do, im just not into that, looping and thats about it for me

thats the reason why i use the technics over the pioneer

Last edited by soundmanshorty : 11-27-2008 at 03:36 AM.
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  #15  
Old 11-27-2008, 03:38 AM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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Im usin a 2 meter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reticuli
Coax sounds better than optical. Keep the runs short. Buy good construction ones that aren't intermittant, and I think that's probably going to be sufficient for the SPDIF. I highly doubt in a double blind test you could hear the difference beyond that between monster and radioshack, though sometimes I find the latter too tight. Most 75ohm component cables are good enough.

I definitely would not run the DAC balanced, though. Most balanced outs are not anywere near as accurate as the original unbalanced signal. You can do an easy test splitting the component + & - signals, sending one as L and the other as R into a pro sound card. Then compare the two signals for frequency response and how correctly aligned the out-of-phase signal is on both. Simply combining the two as mono in the recording program/editor will tell you how much is erroneously canceling...the remainder. Splitting a single RCA and doing the same will verify that the card is accurate to begin with.

I tested an old Rane that was bunk. An advantage that was WAAAY off. Two biamps that were off. Even two different Xone mixers showed phasing going slightly out of perfect unalignment towards the high-end, which is why most A&H mixers sound a bit smooth and polite on big systems...they're using the XLR. Use the + with TS phone connectors or the unbalanced RCA outs, and you got none of that...just accurate. Only one Alesis unit has checked out what I would consider pretty acceptable.

This is absolutely the reason balanced should only be used on runs over 15ft AND where degradation is picked up. Otherwise, there's a good chance you're messing up the sound. I would just put your new dacs directly under or to the side of each Technics player, with cushion under/on. Shorter runs of decent quality RCA cables will drastically improve it over balanced. About the only thing I think balanced is justified for is microphones & pro digital signal transmission. Otherwise, I'd do everything in my power to get the gear close enough not to need it.

I have lost the balanced religion...and have myself become unbalanced and, dare I say, unhinged, by the experience.

monster SPDIF cable to my dacs, so where they will be racked in my console i will have no problems at this length

Last edited by soundmanshorty : 11-27-2008 at 03:47 AM.
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  #16  
Old 11-27-2008, 03:44 AM
Special.K Special.K is offline
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thanks Shorty sound's like i should try some out, i am after the same things as you. when i play out i find i use the CDJ's like a turntable and i haven't used the features so i am after quality and feel not effects.

Cheers,
Kieren.
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  #17  
Old 11-27-2008, 07:05 AM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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The fact that no-one is discriminating between transformer-balanced, op-amp buffer-balanced, or fully balanced throughout undermines any remote credibility to the argument that 'unbalanced is better'.

Sheesh... Why not go over to ProSoundWeb and say that every respected studio and mastering facility is wrong by employing balanced connections?
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Last edited by thermionic : 11-27-2008 at 07:08 AM.
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  #18  
Old 11-27-2008, 07:11 AM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Special.K
i have always wondered why all these DJ crossovers (i have a SDX3500) are unbalanced!

Kieren.

In a nightclub, there are many sources of noise, i.e. aircon, lighting controllers etc. It's a good question - why are these units unbalanced?

Is it because their designers know something that Abbey Road and SearSound don't know? That's amazing... The finest designers make nightclub equipment - not mastering or recording gear costing ten times as much!
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  #19  
Old 11-27-2008, 09:29 AM
Special.K Special.K is offline
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it is a DJ crossover so i figure it must be for professional use, so i figured i was missing something. I have a habit of questioning my understanding of things as although i have been DJing for 21years and in the sound game for at least 18years i was a Monitor guy not a electrical engineer, i left school at 15 to be a DJ for god sake, can't be to bright! LOL....

I got some info of friends & the net and i think I'll make some transformer isolation units. plus i love a mission!!!!

Kieren.

Kieren.
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  #20  
Old 11-27-2008, 10:52 AM
Captainjr Captainjr is offline
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Smile

If balanced outputs are so critical in studio equipment, then why did Barry Gordy (Motown Records Detroit, Temptations, Four Tops, Diana Ross, etc.) insist on using the Bozak unbalanced mixers from 1961-1972 for all of their recordings done in the studio? There were plenty of great balanced boards available at the time (RCA-S7, Ampex-3N, etc.) yet Gordy who did most of the early mastering himself insisted on the Bozak mixers. Was a genius of his caliber just stuck on a brand name for mastering? When I toured the Motown Hall of Fame in 2001 you could still see the presents of the original Bozak mixers in their studio. I asked several Tour Guides questions about the equipment. Unfortunately that is what they were-------TOUR GUIDES. P.S. This is a curious question and not a smart ass remark directed to anyone.
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  #21  
Old 11-27-2008, 11:05 AM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captainjr
If balanced outputs are so critical in studio equipment, then why did Barry Gordy (Motown Records Detroit, Temptations, Four Tops, Diana Ross, etc.) insist on using the Bozak unbalanced mixers from 1961-1972 for all of their recordings done in the studio? There were plenty of great balanced boards available at the time (RCA-S7, Ampex-3N, etc.) yet Gordy who did most of the early mastering himself insisted on the Bozak mixers. Was a genius of his caliber just stuck on a brand name for mastering? When I toured the Motown Hall of Fame in 2001 you could still see the presents of the original Bozak mixers in their studio. I asked several Tour Guides questions about the equipment. Unfortunately that is what they were-------TOUR GUIDES. P.S. This is a curious question and not a smart ass remark directed to anyone.

I had no idea Bozak was used at Motown... Motown is famous for using other gear...

I was under the impression that most of the critical equipment chosen by Berry Gordy was either custom, i.e. the famous 'Motown EQs' or made by Electrodyne or Quad8 - all transformer-balanced.

It's well-documented, check here for Bob Olhsson's post (who worked on Temptations records btw, as Orson Lewis' assistant): http://www.gearslutz.com/board/new-p...ir-back-3.html

BTW - The only real option for balancing in the late '60s / '70s was a transformer. Many engineers of the period disliked the colouration of transformers of the day, which could explain why some engineers then may have preferred unbalanced chains (ironically, making the transformers collectable today). Bear in mind that the only opamps around in the late '60s / early '70s were the likes of LM741s - noisy and generally unpleasant.

edit - Google supports the fact that Motown used Q8 and Electrodyne:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...Sear ch&meta=

If you search 'Motown and Bozak', interestingly, the only hit that connects the 2 is for this group: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...wn&btnG=Search
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Last edited by thermionic : 11-27-2008 at 11:17 AM.
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  #22  
Old 11-27-2008, 12:29 PM
pmdubs pmdubs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thermionic
snip-
BTW - The only real option for balancing in the late '60s / '70s was a transformer. Many engineers of the period disliked the colouration of transformers of the day -snip
Doug Sax was one that famously made this choice in his first mastering studio, but as has been pointed out there were reasons extant then and it would be dangerous to make sweeping assumptions. (He and his brother built their own amplifiers too, and really set a high bar for standards in mastering the decades to follow).

I can tell you for a fact that in mastering circles the talk isn't about unbalanced gear but about gear thats fully differential throughput

A nightclub is a perfect place for balanced gear, but others are welcome to their opinions too. Cheap pots with poor tolerances, too many gain stages, underdeveloped power supplies now these are some real issues in a pro system....

BTW: XLR connectors are much more robust than RCA (phono, cinch,) and can be used for unbalanced connections too (you don't have to use all three pins!). In a pro install they make more sense imho.

Anyway, back to the thread, Lavry is a real scientist and makes very good gear. Glad to hear Shorty is using his convertors.

Erik
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  #23  
Old 11-27-2008, 12:36 PM
edwardcampbell edwardcampbell is offline
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Yo Shorty, keep pushing on, it's time for another JAM Session once again. GET YOUR TRACKS READY !!!!!!!!
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Last edited by edwardcampbell : 11-27-2008 at 12:53 PM.
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  #24  
Old 11-27-2008, 01:09 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardcampbell
Yo Shorty, keep pushing on, it's time for another JAM Session once again. GET YOUR TRACKS READY !!!!!!!!


I AM READY haha, wait till you hear my system with the MIT cables & Lavry DA10 dacs in it, huge diff from what you herd before
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  #25  
Old 11-27-2008, 03:31 PM
Reticuli Reticuli is offline
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Yeah, monster is good, as long as you're not getting taken on their really expensive cables. My older brother is pretty friendly with their CEO. Always good for getting convention and show credentials/passes. My favorite line when informally reping for them: "I am not a monster!"

***

Bob at Gateway Mastering said something even similar to that when doing a talk about dCS. I thought he was full of crap, though I love the guy's work. I was in sound engineering at the time, so I was pretty "conditioned".

Then I went through a blind test run by Thiele. They were using this elaborate charged dialectric with massive power supplies, huge chain-male jackets on the outside added just for durability. RCA cables like an inch thick. Unbelievable. I assumed it was snake oil. But out of the whole room, I was the only one of the participants who could correctly & repeatedly point out when the charged was in path, and when it wasn't. Wonderful sound.

But with my studio training I'm like, "hey, isn't this an incredible expenditure of resources on something that could be done with balanced on the cheap?" The head engineer in charge of this project looked at me like I was from another planet. Honestly, I felt embarrased for the guy and a bit of a dick for pointing that out. We had a saying in Vegas, never step on someone else's hustle. But in retrospect I think he was probably right. He was very cool & we had a little talk after and shook hands. But now I get it.

My conclusion is the best designers are audiophiles, not mastering people. And the best mastering people use audiophile gear. Not vice versa. Now, there's some balanced gear that is very well designed, but it is very few and far between. Stereophile did a comparison when the first DSD equipment came out, and pretty much universally I think they agreed with the same thing. Unbalanced was almost always more accurate.

I suppose if you have a lot of stuff connected, tons of lights, and long runs, balanced becomes a no brainer. But if it's more minimalist, which is what the best mastering peeps love, balanced seems to be counterindicated as the twin inverted signals and differential amps are an extraneous extra stage. Remember, balanced is entirely reliant on the exact matching of the two signals as mirror images. Response, volume, and phase alignment. Try combining them in a passive mix board, and whatever is leftover is how much they are not exactly mirrors. It's surprising how often this is way above your noise floor. I'd heard about that, but never believed it until I tested it myself.

That doesn't mean you will get bad recordings or mastering using balanced. It does mean that more often than not, a two foot long run of quality RCA cable will be more accurate than any length run of balanced XLR. And if you compared the two, you'd hear the former more often sounded more like the original recording compared to the other. I agree that the TS/TRS & XLR jacks themselve are more durable, though. No doubt about that. Hell, there's a reason TS is called "phone"...they were used on old phone operator switch boards. Assuming you're using TS or XLR with the ground into minus, that's definitely a good way to use a balanced out as unbalanced to get the best of both worlds. You also often get the higher output from the better opamps used.

Last edited by Reticuli : 11-27-2008 at 03:45 PM.
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