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  #26  
Old 02-16-2010, 01:25 PM
John-Martin John-Martin is offline
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Is it just the 2016 with the extra gain on the fader or are the other mixing mixers designed the same way?
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  #27  
Old 02-16-2010, 01:30 PM
Mistick Krewe Mistick Krewe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-Martin
Is it just the 2016 with the extra gain on the fader or are the other mixing mixers designed the same way?


i believe that a fair amount of mixers will have some gain available on the channel fader, as opposed to A&H where unity gain is with the fader 'wide open'
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  #28  
Old 02-16-2010, 02:27 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistick Krewe
i believe that a fair amount of mixers will have some gain available on the channel fader, as opposed to A&H where unity gain is with the fader 'wide open'
There are 2 ways of doing this!

One would be to have a circuit with Unity Gain, which I just do not think would be any good for a Phono Pre.

The other way, is to set gain via feedback loop resistors, and set the bottom leg feedback resistor to a value where the pot or fader doesn't begin to swing this voltage until we hit the designs predetermined spot on the fader, where we get said gain.

You just cannot go beyond this point.
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  #29  
Old 02-16-2010, 07:14 PM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atf104
From that day on I never would use an Allen&Heath dj mixer again lol. I do however love their mixing boards, but I could never accept that mentality. In the end, maybe they're right lol

Yea that is also why they put the gains on the back of the Xone32...it's quite annoying really for people who actually have a clue, I find it insulting the way they stereotype all dj's...well most of "you lot" are a bunch of clueless **** so we are going to design them like this..
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  #30  
Old 02-16-2010, 07:17 PM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-Martin
Is it just the 2016 with the extra gain on the fader or are the other mixing mixers designed the same way?

Loads back in the day were designed like that with gain on the fader...To name a few Rane's MP-24 was also like this.
Now days it's quite a rare thing to see on a DJ mixer and will 9 times out of 10 confuse some one lol
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  #31  
Old 02-16-2010, 08:10 PM
John-Martin John-Martin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinyl_junkie
Loads back in the day were designed like that with gain on the fader...To name a few Rane's MP-24 was also like this.
Now days it's quite a rare thing to see on a DJ mixer and will 9 times out of 10 confuse some one lol

Should have said it better... Are there any in-production mixers that have extra gain on the fader? Aside from 2016s, whatever stock of Urei LEs is out there, and the boutique mixers?

That whole unity at 10 thing on the Xone has always bothered me. I usually end up running the gains till the meters are just hitting +10 and the channel faders at 8 but then, maybe it's just me, but I don't think it sounds as good compared to running them up to ten.
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Last edited by John-Martin : 02-16-2010 at 08:14 PM.
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  #32  
Old 02-16-2010, 08:49 PM
Special.K Special.K is offline
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You know it’s not only armature DJ’s running mixers way too hard, I have seen countless so called “Sound Engineers” running mixing consoles way, way too hard & most modern consoles don’t sound good running into the red unlike some of the consoles I use to work with when I was mixing bands.
I even had a guy in my studio telling me about the years he spent in “Sound School” then he proceeded to push the master up to 9 with the mic channel on 3 and complaining about the “Background Hiss”, I almost lost my temper, told him to piss off and took control myself..

I personally think it is a new generation chasing TOYS instead of QUALITY, The manufactures don’t help by allowing the mixers to be run with the faders up full..
I also believe a lot of DJ’s these days are in it to be “COOL” and truly have no appreciation for the music they play for if they did they would surely care about the sound quality more and keep the faders down as well as help us convince the clubs to fix/upgrade their sound systems but instead every time I am talking to a club about a system I hear “DJ ???? Wants & won’t play without a DJM800” or “DJ ???? Said the speakers are fine you just need to swap the RANE MP44 for a DJM800 (I got this one recently)” or “DJ ???? Said that the cheaper speakers sound just as good as yours”…..
I feel like DJ’s are the enemy to sound quality now (and yes I am a DJ so I might need therapy) where in the past it was just budget restraints..

The same mentality that makes me spend money on Vinyl and customizing my turntables, Mixer, Amps & Speakers at home is also what makes me keep the mixers in the green when I’m playing out.
In the end I LOVE music, whether I’m playing House or Classic Disco, Funk or Soul and I feel the only way for punters to also Love the music I play is if they hear it the way it was produced to sound like or at least as close to it as possible. So even if the sound system I’m playing on sucks-ass it is still worth keeping the distortion from the mixer at its lowest possible…

I hope that made sense, I’ve been ranting all morning!!
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  #33  
Old 02-16-2010, 09:07 PM
Nox Nox is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Special.K
You know it’s not only armature DJ’s running mixers way too hard, I have seen countless so called “Sound Engineers” running mixing consoles way, way too hard & most modern consoles don’t sound good running into the red unlike some of the consoles I use to work with when I was mixing bands.
I even had a guy in my studio telling me about the years he spent in “Sound School” then he proceeded to push the master up to 9 with the mic channel on 3 and complaining about the “Background Hiss”, I almost lost my temper, told him to piss off and took control myself..

I personally think it is a new generation chasing TOYS instead of QUALITY, The manufactures don’t help by allowing the mixers to be run with the faders up full..
I also believe a lot of DJ’s these days are in it to be “COOL” and truly have no appreciation for the music they play for if they did they would surely care about the sound quality more and keep the faders down as well as help us convince the clubs to fix/upgrade their sound systems but instead every time I am talking to a club about a system I hear “DJ ???? Wants & won’t play without a DJM800” or “DJ ???? Said the speakers are fine you just need to swap the RANE MP44 for a DJM800 (I got this one recently)” or “DJ ???? Said that the cheaper speakers sound just as good as yours”…..
I feel like DJ’s are the enemy to sound quality now (and yes I am a DJ so I might need therapy) where in the past it was just budget restraints..

The same mentality that makes me spend money on Vinyl and customizing my turntables, Mixer, Amps & Speakers at home is also what makes me keep the mixers in the green when I’m playing out.
In the end I LOVE music, whether I’m playing House or Classic Disco, Funk or Soul and I feel the only way for punters to also Love the music I play is if they hear it the way it was produced to sound like or at least as close to it as possible. So even if the sound system I’m playing on sucks-ass it is still worth keeping the distortion from the mixer at its lowest possible…

I hope that made sense, I’ve been ranting all morning!!
Agreed with your statement concerning many people DJing to be cool and the fact that the DJM 800 is the best mixer existing at this moment...

Pray the disco king to slay em all.
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  #34  
Old 02-16-2010, 09:10 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nox
Agreed with your statement concerning many people DJing to be cool and the fact that the DJM 800 is the best mixer existing at this moment...

The BEST mixer, existing, at this moment?

No way.
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  #35  
Old 02-16-2010, 09:22 PM
Nox Nox is offline
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Hey man, when you see DJM 800 everywhere, talked about everytime, mentionned by all DJs. It will sooner or later get into those little scrawny brains of theirs.
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  #36  
Old 02-16-2010, 09:25 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nox
Hey man, when you see DJM 800 everywhere, talked about everytime, mentionned by all DJs. It will sooner or later get into those little scrawny brains of theirs.
What is YOUR choice for BEST sounding mixer?
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  #37  
Old 02-16-2010, 09:26 PM
Special.K Special.K is offline
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True, Pioneer has done what no other DJ equipment manufacturer has done as far as Marketing goes, still disposable crap though!
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  #38  
Old 02-16-2010, 09:28 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Special.K
True, Pioneer has done what no other DJ equipment manufacturer has done as far as Marketing goes, still disposable crap though!
This statement I can get with!

Pio's marketing is PHENOMENAL!
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  #39  
Old 02-16-2010, 09:57 PM
Nox Nox is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clubman5
What is YOUR choice for BEST sounding mixer?
I've heared the Xone, DJM, Urei, Rane.

For some god damn odd reason, i do enjoy the Rane 2016. I enjoy the Urei 1620 i've got, but the rane just sounds... clean and crisp. Like bacon... :drool: except for the clean part...

Edit: To be honest, there are no best sounding for me. What matters for me is what compressor was used, how the sound was modified. What PA is used.

Last edited by Nox : 02-16-2010 at 10:07 PM.
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  #40  
Old 02-16-2010, 10:05 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nox
I've heared the Xone, DJM, Urei, Rane.

For some god damn odd reason, i do enjoy the Rane 2016. I enjoy the Urei 1620 i've got, but the rane just sounds... clean and crisp. Like bacon... :drool: except for the clean part...
And I would agree with your choices as well, depending on what I am doing. That is a lot of mixers for a guy your age! For some odd reason, I just didn't picture you with two TOP mixers like these!

My best sound, comes from a sort of Half and Half combination. Use the Urei 1620 as mixer, but, run the tape outs into a Crown IC-150 preamp, or Crown Straight Line Two preamp, PHENOMENAL SOUND ANY WAY YOU WANT IT!

And many other fantastic pre's to audition this way, just not space or cost conscious!
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  #41  
Old 02-17-2010, 02:03 AM
Fred Bissnette Fred Bissnette is offline
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why do most djs clip a mixer???



they are idiots
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  #42  
Old 02-17-2010, 02:48 AM
Special.K Special.K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Bissnette
why do most djs clip a mixer??? they are idiots
I resemble that remark!!!!!!!
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  #43  
Old 02-17-2010, 12:30 PM
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michele michele is offline
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one of the best post ever read here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by atf104
I have a story on this topic I'll never forget. It was the first time I installed an Allen&Heath mixer years ago after only having dealings with Rane (this was like about 10 years ago, before the whole Pioneer craze). I believe it was the Xone 6 channel mixer, but regardless, I set it up and couldnt get any gain out of it without turning the master to 10, and the faders all the way up. I thought something was wrong with it.

I called Allen&Heath and I get a "hallo mate! how can we help ya?". Very friendly, and after explaining to him the "problem", I get a response: "Well mate, we design our mixers to run maxed at 10 because most dj's tend to not know how to properly run equipment and run it at 10 anyway, we've been doing it this way for a long time".

From that day on I never would use an Allen&Heath dj mixer again lol. I do however love their mixing boards, but I could never accept that mentality. In the end, maybe they're right lol
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  #44  
Old 02-17-2010, 01:00 PM
der geile ami der geile ami is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atf104
I have a story on this topic I'll never forget. It was the first time I installed an Allen&Heath mixer years ago after only having dealings with Rane (this was like about 10 years ago, before the whole Pioneer craze). I believe it was the Xone 6 channel mixer, but regardless, I set it up and couldnt get any gain out of it without turning the master to 10, and the faders all the way up. I thought something was wrong with it.

I called Allen&Heath and I get a "hallo mate! how can we help ya?". Very friendly, and after explaining to him the "problem", I get a response: "Well mate, we design our mixers to run maxed at 10 because most dj's tend to not know how to properly run equipment and run it at 10 anyway, we've been doing it this way for a long time".

From that day on I never would use an Allen&Heath dj mixer again lol. I do however love their mixing boards, but I could never accept that mentality. In the end, maybe they're right lol

If you think about this from the perspective of a normal mixer, it does make perfect to mix the input faders to the top.

On a normal mixer, inputs have the gain adjusted to zero or wherever the reference is set to be. The input gains correspond to how loud in the mix the input needs to be. When mixing down a song, or a band, not all instruments need to be at unity for proper balance. With djing, there is typically just one input in the mix (when fully mixed in), so why would it need to be at anything other than unity (when fully mixed in)? If the signal is always going to be mixed to unity, why allow the fader to go higher than unity? In live sound, there is extra throw on the fader, but only because sometimes you HAVE to push it hotter, if the source is just not loud enough, and the source is not something you can control.

Any attachments to mixing to 7 or 8, or anywhere else below full fader throw on a dj mixer are simply throwback to when mixers had no additional gain circuit. Does that extra gain circuit fuck up the sound? Let that be debated separately, but if the idea is good enough for live music, it's good enough for me. Room acoustics will still contribute more to the sound...

As for the master output not having enough juice, I've never had a problem with any mixer master out pushing the the sound to a xover. If anything, in practice I set dsp inputs a few dB lower to give some breathing room for the inevitable, predictably hot dj signal
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  #45  
Old 02-17-2010, 01:21 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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But, what IF pushing the particular circuit to "THE TOP" as you say, results in distortion from that particular segment of the gear?

OTOH, many people like a bit of distortion to the sound, even though they are not aware of this. A slight bit of distortion is satisfying to the ear, sometimes, much the same way a BIG, GREASY, JUICY cheeseburger with fried onions and ketchup is to the tastebuds. Not really the best thing, but, it is LIKED anyway!
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  #46  
Old 02-17-2010, 01:22 PM
ArmenianSoul ArmenianSoul is offline
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I had an 800 for a year, i wasnt woawed by it because 1. i dont use cdj's or any digital i/o, 2. the effect parameter switch was retarted on this model, 3. the thing hurts my eyes after 10 minutes being in the dark with it.

I think kids today who dj are being born in the laptop/electronica generation and they are only aspired by the gear most pros are using (TTM 57sl, djm 800) Hell I dont even see the vestax lines out in clubs that much.
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  #47  
Old 02-17-2010, 01:30 PM
Nox Nox is offline
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Bleh... The music world has changed.

It is no longer about art, talent, emotion, technique, hard work. It's all about creating a product that sells.

Big difference in music that has grown over the pass few years: We 'Real' DJs play art. Others play a product.

Last edited by Nox : 02-17-2010 at 01:35 PM.
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  #48  
Old 02-17-2010, 01:34 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nox
Bleh... The music world has changed.

It is no longer about art, talent, emotion, technique, hard work. It's all about creating a product that sells.
Umm, you could go to beatport and listen to "What happened To Us" By The Jinks feat. Carla Prather, on Bargrooves Over Ice, and then come tell me about how there is no music in todays music.
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  #49  
Old 02-17-2010, 01:38 PM
Digitalis Digitalis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by der geile ami
If you think about this from the perspective of a normal mixer, it does make perfect to mix the input faders to the top.

The problem with this is that it encourages mixing from the meters instead of listening to the mix. A large majority of folks who mix with the faders at the top set the trim level from the channel or cue meter and then just slam the fader up. A lot of the time the perceived volume is often quite different between tracks even when the meters peak at the same level.. as a result the mixes sound choppy and the volume is all over the place over the night. Since the fader was slammed up the volume change was abrupt and makes the change more noticeable.

The events I get involved with are smaller, local events often with less experienced DJs... and I cannot tell you how many times I have spent half the night chasing level on the mains because the DJ plays new over-compressed electro house track followed by something pressed before the volume wars. Occasionally we record the DJ sets and publish them... and let me tell you, away from the natural hearing compression you get from 115db, trying to edit these mixes on good monitors, it is a nightmare!

When people talk about how "smooth" mixing is with a UREI or Bozak, I think much of the effect is forcing people to use their ears to set mix levels. I know I get a similar effect when I use an older, no pre-gain, slide mixer and on my UREI. The two times I have tried to use these mixers at a gig, I have been asked, in no uncertain terms, to never do that again.
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  #50  
Old 02-17-2010, 01:44 PM
Nox Nox is offline
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I never meant all music is crap. It's just the fact that internet has screwed us up. The ratio of good music to bad is overwhelming. It's easier for people to make music and share it using the internet. So one person thinks he can be a producer and buys the software and there he goes. The cycle continues with guys trying to make a track and sending them to beatport.
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