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  #51  
Old 01-29-2006, 08:40 PM
animal animal is offline
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Smile

etch them myself. the prototypes. Then I will clean up the design and send the board out to get made. order about 12 or so. My crossovers were 12 db roll off when I made them . Rla were 18 db roll offs. I will say they did sound alot nicer. The duo unit has a 6db roll off. This an isolator not a cross over. not enough in my opinion. but thats just me.

animal
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  #52  
Old 01-30-2006, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by animal
etch them myself. the prototypes. Then I will clean up the design and send the board out to get made. order about 12 or so. My crossovers were 12 db roll off when I made them . Rla were 18 db roll offs. I will say they did sound alot nicer. The duo unit has a 6db roll off. This an isolator not a cross over. not enough in my opinion. but thats just me.

animal


I think it's not enough for me too.
yeah crossover need more than 12db because sometime it(6db) will destroy tweeters. too much mid frequency!!

peace

taisei

Last edited by Rotarymadness : 01-31-2006 at 08:37 PM.
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  #53  
Old 01-30-2006, 09:56 PM
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Never really had a problem blowing things up. Understand this was a long time ago. it was alot of math and 12 db sallen key filters were easy to build. Just move the decimal point on the cap. Now with the cross over freqencies i was useing, 20to100hz on the subs, 20to1000 on the bass 1000 to 20,000 on the mids and 7000Hz on the tweeters. I also had a cap passively 1/2 the crossover point on the mids and tweeters. This gave me that extra 6db roll off at the end. I very rarely blew drivers. Now the isolator I'm playing with will act just like the crossover summed back to the stereo audio path. Just something I am playing with.
animal

Last edited by animal : 01-30-2006 at 10:18 PM.
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  #54  
Old 01-30-2006, 10:21 PM
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FWIW, 12db slopes are fine, as long as your powered correctly and use proper xover points, and dont severely abuse your system, you will not blow your tweeters!



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  #55  
Old 02-04-2006, 09:25 AM
animal animal is offline
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Just putting this question out there. What amount of gain would you want on a isolator. 12db,16db,18db,.

thanks,
animal
uploaded part of the layout just for kicks.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 3 way isolator sound images b rev2.jpg (90.8 KB, 327 views)

Last edited by animal : 02-04-2006 at 02:42 PM.
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  #56  
Old 02-04-2006, 10:27 AM
flightparties flightparties is offline
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Isolator has a gain of 4-6dB but in attenuation goes to infinity, so a "perfect" 3 band isolator for me has 300Hz and 4000Hz as a frecuency cuts with a gain of +6dB and a attenuation of infinity (If all 3 Knobs are anticlockwise no sound anything) in central point 0dB and all knobs clockwise + 6 dB
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  #57  
Old 02-04-2006, 10:38 AM
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yup, I was thinking more in the line of 12db gain at full up. I'll try it and see. We'll compare notes.


thanks,
animal
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  #58  
Old 02-04-2006, 10:45 AM
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Thatīs because when you are mixing you use Isolator in a 90% to eliminate frecuency ranges you only use gain for "give a little more" just in few moments and with 6 dB you donīt have too much problems overloading main EQ or croossover inputs
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  #59  
Old 02-04-2006, 12:50 PM
animal animal is offline
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Yea I know. That was the concept for the Rla type crossovers. So the d.j. had control. We did'nt have isolators back then. The crossover was it. You got to bear with me on this because this isolator thing is new to me. My concept is for it to act just like the crossover. I think I can control it so it won't overdrive the front end. Never had a problem with my crossovers and on one of them I had 20db gain on the subs. that was a problem. This is grate!! Keep sharing with me and will have some fun.

thanks,
animal
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  #60  
Old 02-04-2006, 09:53 PM
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Hi Animal

I love using traditional DJ crossover like isolators.
i use GSA X3001 like isolator because the unit sounds so beautiful, better than any other isolator i used.
but there are some things about using rla type crossover as isolator.

without eqing

1:18db slope is too "gentle" for isolator effects. you can hear the frequency you don't want to.

2:the frequency point of 100hz will divide the BASS DRUM sound
(you can hear the attack sound when you cut)

3:the Bass eq is too massive for recording

for enjoying the isolator effect they have to be cleared.
that is why people were using post crossover eqs to solve these things
(please don't think about room acoustic or sound making eq now)
as i was educated here "LESS is MORE", right?

so i love your idea of putting "second roll off" it will clear the #1.
but still need eq for #2. the frequency point have to move
bass drum sound have to be togeter when you cut "BASS" knob.
i don't wanna pump up the roll off sound and cut low frequency with another product's filter to make a good balance.

in conclusion
I just wanna have RLA quality isolater.
using few components but super sound! and ceap!
also light weight good to handle.
i no need "heavy" super class a solid state tube what ever bra bra bra kind prossesor. this will be so expensive
it's very good to jerk off at home or installed at club.
but not for mobile gigs.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

i don't wanna spend $500 for one frequency.
(3band isolator=$1500, 5band eq=$2500)
i am sorry cow but it is bull's sh*t.
i dont know when someone start to put this price
but the price is making the thing minority.
if the price is fair and the unit has rla quality sound
the guy who make the unit will become a king here!
I am sure many people love to using iso.
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  #61  
Old 02-04-2006, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by atf104

How are you etching? I remembe a few years back I found this place online that had a piece of software you downloaded, you layed out your board, the software uploaded the design automatically and 48 hours later, tada! you had an etched and drilled board at your place, double sided too.


I believe you are talking about Express PCB, I use them all the time and their turnaround time is great! They have free design software that you can download which works really well. They have a deal where you design a board that fits within 2.5" x 3.8" that costs about $50 for 3 copies of the same board (shipping included).

www.expresspcb.com
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  #62  
Old 02-05-2006, 08:29 AM
animal animal is offline
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Thanks Rotarymadness,

It's been awhile since I've done any of this, so the more info and ideas I can get is great. I'll try to get this thing up and running. I'll be able to change it that's not a problem. I need to see how it will work and make sure it's stable. Ossilation, noise etc.

animal
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  #63  
Old 02-05-2006, 09:05 AM
flightparties flightparties is offline
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If this can help you, commercial Vestax Isolator has 2 models 3 Band and 4 Band



3 Band Isolator FUNCTIONS

*//// Frequency Range : On all 3-frequency settings (Lo, Mid, High) you can adjust your range from infinity to +4dB. In addition, the on/off switch, bypasses the isolators settings returning to the original input signal.

DCR-1200Pro (4 Band)

FEATURES

This unique 6-Band eliminator combines advanced EQ and isolator functions to give you amazing cut control over your 60Hz, 160Hz, 500Hz, 1.6kHz, 5kHz and 16kHz frequencies. The no boost cut only vertical faders can be adjusted real time and the whole effects setting can be bypassed returning to the original sound of the input source quickly and easily.

http://www.vestax.com/v/products/eff...r-1200pro.html


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  #64  
Old 02-05-2006, 09:10 AM
flightparties flightparties is offline
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Also you can download schematics of Rane Mp 2016 and External module Xp 2016 who has buit in an isolator



Rane Schematics 2016 PDF

look at the tone control circuit I think itīs based on Linkwitz-Riley 12dB
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  #65  
Old 02-05-2006, 02:44 PM
animal animal is offline
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Hey flightparties,
can't beat that rane library. Take a look at the mid input of the low pass section at the tone control circut. you can see how its inverted then the output going to the highpass filter is not. Thats to take care of the phase issue that happens with 12db filters. Thanks for the great info!!!

animal
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  #66  
Old 02-05-2006, 06:48 PM
flightparties flightparties is offline
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I like these schematics, I have similar from Vestax Mixer also with Built in Isolators seems very similar
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Last edited by flightparties : 02-05-2006 at 06:59 PM.
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  #67  
Old 02-06-2006, 03:37 AM
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So interesting.

Again Isolator vs. Crossover.

I only know how the Crossover functons and I understand that you need:

(1) A set of full range Speakers or Monitors

(2) A self Powered SUB

(3) A seperate power amp to drive the Tweeter Array

OK I have all installed except (3) at the moment and am very happy.

I would think that the isolator option which allows you to do all through one power amp, in theory would be great but IMO, I doubt is will ever sound as good at the Cross Over approach, am I wrong ?
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  #68  
Old 02-06-2006, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by LuvLatins

I would think that the isolator option which allows you to do all through one power amp, in theory would be great but IMO, I doubt is will ever sound as good at the Cross Over approach, am I wrong ?

if you had the know-how, or willingness to spend $$$$$; you could build really 'over the top' full range boxes that passivly incorporated everything from really high quality subs to the bullets (or whatever you favorite ring radiator is)...

what's you favorite flavour?

do you want active or passive crossover technology is the main question... you can get there both ways...
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  #69  
Old 02-06-2006, 04:43 AM
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Wow very very interesting.
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  #70  
Old 02-06-2006, 08:54 AM
benjaminb benjaminb is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by LuvLatins
So interesting.

Again Isolator vs. Crossover.

I only know how the Crossover functons and I understand that you need:

(1) A set of full range Speakers or Monitors

(2) A self Powered SUB

(3) A seperate power amp to drive the Tweeter Array

OK I have all installed except (3) at the moment and am very happy.

I would think that the isolator option which allows you to do all through one power amp, in theory would be great but IMO, I doubt is will ever sound as good at the Cross Over approach, am I wrong ?


isolators are usually run between the decks and the mixer, so that you can have channel EQ on a Urei/Bozak style mixer.
sounds completely different from an RLA-style DJ crossover, which is essentially sending out extra channels of bass and highs to go over top of the full range.
if you turn down the bass on an isolator, you will just hear the mids and highs, where if you turn down the subs on your RLA, you will still hear the full range signal (as well as the tweeters on top of that).


there are two types of crossovers, active and passive. your monitors would have passive crossovers inside them. on a larger system, you would likely send the full range from your RLA to a more traditional style active crossover that would then feed the individual amps for your different frequency ranges.

active crossovers give you more control on how the frequency ranges interact, but passive crossovers are cheaper and simple, and allow you to use one amp.
i believe (but i could be wrong) that using multiple amps and active crossovers is more efficient than passive crossovers.
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  #71  
Old 02-06-2006, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by benjaminb
isolators are usually run between the decks and the mixer, so that you can have channel EQ on a Urei/Bozak style mixer.
sounds completely different from an RLA-style DJ crossover, which is essentially sending out extra channels of bass and highs to go over top of the full range.
if you turn down the bass on an isolator, you will just hear the mids and highs, where if you turn down the subs on your RLA, you will still hear the full range signal (as well as the tweeters on top of that).


there are two types of crossovers, active and passive. your monitors would have passive crossovers inside them. on a larger system, you would likely send the full range from your RLA to a more traditional style active crossover that would then feed the individual amps for your different frequency ranges.

active crossovers give you more control on how the frequency ranges interact, but passive crossovers are cheaper and simple, and allow you to use one amp.
i believe (but i could be wrong) that using multiple amps and active crossovers is more efficient than passive crossovers.


hi
i only use one isolator so i use LOOP I/O

peace
taisei
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  #72  
Old 02-06-2006, 08:39 PM
benjaminb benjaminb is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rotarymadness
hi
i only use one isolator so i use LOOP I/O

peace
taisei


do you use it as a special effect, or for more subtle shaping and thickening?

which one are you using?
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  #73  
Old 02-06-2006, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by benjaminb
do you use it as a special effect, or for more subtle shaping and thickening?

which one are you using?

HI

I use it as effect.

cut bass during singer is singing
cut mid and hi and play bass only
cut bass and mid and play Hi Hat only
and mix next vinyl during these effect, I love them

Bozak mixer is thick and good shape sound already
put more prossesor makes sound thin and bad shape in my system
basicly i don't need to match the record balance, bozak can play and mix well

if i want to treat the sound, i use 5000 type eq during mixing or after (Old School?)
i don't recomend to treat sound with 3 band eq or iso, too wide for me

oh i don't use the trick(?) of mixing one record with bass and one without bass or hi (like acapella). so i don't need isolatorS

peace
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  #74  
Old 02-06-2006, 09:06 PM
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HI

I think there is no "VS" they are totally different purpose
vestax or few other unit can use separate output
if you have multi amps system, you need both

peace
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  #75  
Old 02-06-2006, 09:11 PM
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Rotarymadness Rotarymadness is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rotarymadness
[b]
Bozak mixer is thick and good shape sound already
put more prossesor makes sound thin and bad shape in my system
basicly i don't need to match the record balance, bozak can play and mix well
[b]


bozak mixer and "Modified" UREI can play LP like 12 inch

peace
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