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-   -   Bozak AR-6 (http://www.wavemusic.com/community/showthread.php?t=14268)

mieze245 03-23-2014 06:44 PM

Bozak AR-6
 
They seem to be taking orders.

Has anyone had the chance to test one?

On a side note, I possibly looking to purchase a bozak. However, I would like an opportunity to hear one. I live in Atlanta if there are any members in Georgia with a Bozak or 1620 please send me a PM. I would like to listen to one before I commit to the investment.

thank you

J.

Captainjr 03-23-2014 08:00 PM

mieze245..I am sure you are aware that the new Bozak AR-6 mixer in no way is related to the performance or sound reproduction ability of the original USA brand Bozak mixers. I can not speak for the company now producing the mixer but you may want to compare a original with the remake from overseas. I have heard both good and bad reviews about the new AR-6 unit and the manufacture. It would be to your advantage to try and get some feedback from owners here in the states that may have purchased the reissue. As far as the original goes you can read lots of post here on wave about the original Bozak CMA series and original UREI 1620 music mixers pros and cons.

vinyl_junkie 03-24-2014 07:03 AM

I can't comment on the AR-6 as I've never used one or any of the new Bozak products but I did talk to Paul from the new Bozak company in the past a few times and he said the following regarding the mixer.

"It uses the original design of the CMA range throughout. The AR-6 is the CMA-10 but brought up to current audio and build quality standards with actual balanced outputs at 4dB, lower nosie floor, stereo 3 way eq, FR4 through hole pcbs, shielded toridal transformer and so on and so on.

It would have been so easy to just bring out a "vintage" CMA-10 but thats not we are about, things need to move forward.

The company own the worldwide rights to to everything associated with Bozak. We put our money where our mouth is to buy the rights to a product we believe in and to bring it bang up to date so it is available to everyone and not the selected few."

I don't think you can go wrong with either vintage or new, just down to taste and needs I think. They probability sound different but not that different and if based on the CMA-10-2DL should sound nice.
To me the mixer looks well made. The phono and other cards do also look very similar in layout to the original, it would be nice if there were schematics to see what is what though.

It would also be good if some one posted an unbiased review of the AR-6 who also owns or has owned the original mixers.

vinyl_junkie 03-24-2014 07:19 AM








Captainjr 03-24-2014 12:25 PM

vinyl_junkie... I could not agree with you more. After seeing your post and the complete overhaul you did on a original DL you of all people should know the ins and outs of the physical quality and sound reproduction of the USA Bozak built mixers. Lots of hype was created when the AR-6 was conceived and I am sure there are lots of opinions but I like you would like to hear from owners and operators of the actual unit who purchased it and not given one for test purposes. I tried on many occasions to get a schematic of the new AR-6 but no one seems to have one and the few people who had access to it would not provide a view. People over the years like yourself, Pern, Buzzy Beck, etc. are willing to help out and share their knowledge. I guess the competitive market and the ability to make money is why so many new manufactures are reluctant to share their designs and updates. Years ago I read all the same statements provided from Paul Morrissey when introducing the idea of the remake of Bozak products. I would love to see an original and the AR-6 in a a/b comparison. I am sure all the newer specs of the AR-6 would outperform the original design from over 50 years ago but what would the ears decide? Also I think from what I have seen the exterior power supply built by Justin of Isonone when added to the originals exerts optimum performance of the original mixer and may possibly with the originals real discrete design surpass the new mixer. I was once told by Buzzy Beck that each mixer was hand build and even though cards were produced in quantities at the factory they were individually assembled and parts hand selected and matched for performance.

rs_ 03-24-2014 04:30 PM

That AR-6 is a beautiful piece of electronics.

The only concern I'd have with buying one would be Customer Service, which I've found to be flaky at best.

I'm hoping my matched pair of souped up MP24 rotaries will hold up for 5 years in the club, but if I were starting today I would go Bozure all the way, with custom power supplies and upgraded opamps.

rs

mieze245 03-25-2014 09:13 AM

It does look rather sweet.

Does anyone have a clue on what opamps are used?

Pern 03-25-2014 09:51 AM

It's a Discrete mixer using Transistors, no opamps. But i'm not 100% sure if the balanced out driver use a opamp or not :)

rs_ 03-25-2014 11:22 AM

I know for sure that the Bozak ISO-1 Isolator uses TL072 opamps to balance.
rs

vinyl_junkie 03-25-2014 09:40 PM

Captainjr, you make a very good point re schematics.

Whilst I also feel that it should be standard protocol that all professional equipment comes with something like this, a valid point was raised on another technical forum by some one.

"I too remember schematics inside equipment or foldout sheets in the instruction handbook. Geez! Nagra used to supply a small poly bag of components!

There is one small problem that I see. My last employer spent a lot of time,midnight oil, fags, tea and bad language getting and voicing circuits right. They are still a small company and fear all that work, if in the public domain, would be copied.

My personal view is that the more "professional" approach of giving out circuits to people who can show a genuine need is the best policy."

And on the other side you have..

"I think it was Sony that was the first to not provide schematics. They were certainly the first to not give information to service departments that were not their official franchises. Now it's spreading into industrial kit. A lot of the modern machinery has no service information, or deliberately misses out critical stuff so on-site engineers can only do basic repairs."

Captainjr 03-26-2014 12:55 AM

vinyl_junkie point taken if a company does not want to provide information to the general public with something being in the developing stage etc. I just think when you as a consumer purchases a piece of equipment you should have access to schematics and service information in case the company goes under and you need a repair of some sort. You should not have the responsibility placed on you to track down something that even a professional repair facility does not have access to. I have talked to a couple different people who own products from several new company's including the new Bozak and were denied schematic access and information. Looking back to original UREI, Bozak, Rane, and other respectable company's from years past they provided the purchaser with operator and service manuals with many of their products as you mentioned. I would not want to purchase a $2000.00 component and find out it has become a throw away because technical information would not be made available to me or a professional repair facility.

Pern 03-26-2014 05:49 AM

"It uses the original design of the CMA range throughout. The AR-6 is the CMA-10 but brought up to current audio and build quality standards "

The old schematics are not hard to find, yes some parts used are obsolete today but if you have access to the mixer you can just see what they replaced them with. So i don't see a problem with not having access to the AR-6 schematics, anyone that have the skills to repair an original Bozak should be able to fix the AR-6 also. Guess the biggest problem is finding people with these skills today.

Developing something like this and build a sucessfull company around it requires a lot of money. For a small company that would normally require to get some investors, if you release the schematics etc. i think it would be very hard to find anyone that would invest in it. A larger company that can afford to spend like $100K-$200K in R&D, manufacturing and sales related costs easy might think different.

Captainjr 03-26-2014 06:44 PM

Pern...do you know if they redesign the tone and summing amp cards? It does not look like they used the original 2N3822 jfet that are now obsolete so I am guessing the circuit was redesigned or changed. Lots of the interior looks more like a copy of the original UREI 1620 that Paul reissued as the LE. You are correct that the problem is finding technicians that are technicians and not parts replacers when a repair is required. A lot of the cards look like what was in the original Bozak 1983 HB cross fader mixer. I wonder if they also got the rights to that unit.

Pern 03-27-2014 03:42 AM

No i don't know that. But i see no reason why they should change the design of the tone and summing amp cards. I assume they use another FET than the original and due to that they might have changed a couple of the resistor values on thoose PCBs.

Yes, it does look a lot like the 1620LE inside. But nothing wrong with that, it's still high quality work.

mieze245 03-27-2014 10:18 PM

I am torn between getting the OG model or the up to date model.....

A\B test fairy where are you?

Richi 03-28-2014 12:05 AM

Hope those resistors are carbon film and not the original use of carbon comp. Not that i like carbon film :) Agree with Pern, it looks like high quality standard for this unit.

Captainjr 03-28-2014 10:55 AM

Not to go off track but I don't think anyone is questioning the build quality of the newer Bozak AR-6 mixer. I think the original question is about sound quality reproduction compared to an original BOZAK or UREI mixer. Has anyone done A/B comparisons that would help mieze245 make a valid decision? Does it actually sound better and if so thoughts on how and why from knowledgeable people like Pern who does lots of his own designs. One comment I have also heard like rs_ is lack of technical support. Their communications to sell are very professional and accommodating but when asking for technical support they draw back. When you read posts I think attitude interpretation can become confusing. I don't think anyone here including myself is trying to bad mouth or degrade the AR-6 mixer only trying to get a few valid opinions or questions answered. On another note about corporate design issues....I have seen photos of the original 1980 Bozak HB-8A mixer shown at audio shows for several years in the early 1980s. The interior design looks very similar to the original 1620 released in late 1982 by UREI. I was once told by a reliable source that one of Bozaks designer engineers had production disagreements about the matrix input selection switching network and tooling costs. He left Bozak and moved to the western states around 1979 or so. He became employed by UREI and was partially accredited with the original 1620 music mixers production that had the matrix switching function as a key feature.

mieze245 03-28-2014 12:09 PM

Also I am curious to see how the external EQ is routed with the mixer.
Does anyone one have pics of the backplane of the external eq?

1620_nz 03-29-2014 07:25 PM

They mentioned on thier blog that they would be releasing some adjustable 19" racks for rotary mixers/ isolators etc aaaages ago. I emailed them and got partial responses. I gave up in the end.

Best idea for them would be to sort thier shit out, have the whole range available to be purchased, then his the market running.


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